If mind = brain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Circle5
Posts: 878
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Circle5 » Sun May 20, 2018 11:53 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:49 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 am
Bundokji wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am
What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).
Are you saying that with no self-view there is no experience of change?
There is no experiencer of change.
There is no experiencer of change even with a belief in a self existing in the organism. There never was a self to begin with, just the opinion that it is, based on lack of information.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1196
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am

Circle5 wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:53 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:49 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 am


Are you saying that with no self-view there is no experience of change?
There is no experiencer of change.
There is no experiencer of change even with a belief in a self existing in the organism. There never was a self to begin with, just the opinion that it is, based on lack of information.
Even Advaita says this.

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1536
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 11:57 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:15 am
Satipatthana practice involves making such choices. We choose to pay attention to particular aspects of experience.

There is also the role of appropriate attention: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Actually in Theravada "experience" is represented by the five aggregates, the whole process. You have been focussing on the role of sanna ( perception/recognition )
Or you could say, that reading the satipatthana sutta directed your attention to particular aspects of experience. Mindfulness can be defined as constant remembrance to direct our attention to what is conducive to dispassion.

The Buddha said:
One is the quest for worldly gain, and quite another is the path to Nibbana. Clearly understanding this, let not the monk, the disciple of the Buddha, be carried away by worldly acclaim, but develop detachment instead.
My point was not focusing on the role of sanna, but as Ajahn Chah said:
Actually the real Dhamma, the gist of what I have been saying today, isn't so mysterious. Whatever you experience is simply form, simply feeling, simply perception, simply volition, and simply consciousness. There are only these basic qualities, where is there any certainty within them?

If we come to understand the true nature of things like this, lust, infatuation and attachment fade away. Why do they fade away? Because we understand, we know. We shift from ignorance to understanding. Understanding is born from ignorance, knowing is born from unknowing, purity is born from defilement. It works like this.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Not_Sure_Standard.php
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1536
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 12:02 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:16 am
So how does this relate to Buddhist practice? How does it relate to teachings on anicca and anatta?
Think of what brought us to the Buddha in terms of the first noble truth. We want to pass over from death to the deathless. From the conditioned to the unconditioned (nibbana)
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1196
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:02 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:16 am
So how does this relate to Buddhist practice? How does it relate to teachings on anicca and anatta?
Think of what brought us to the Buddha in terms of the first noble truth. We want to pass over from death to the deathless. From the conditioned to the unconditioned (nibbana)
Once again, comparing two states. The comparative mind operates within a construction of time. How can thinking like this lead to freedom?

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1536
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 3:47 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 pm
Once again, comparing two states. The comparative mind operates within a construction of time. How can thinking like this lead to freedom?
"Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. [7] Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying it on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

auto
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by auto » Sun May 20, 2018 5:15 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:02 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:16 am
So how does this relate to Buddhist practice? How does it relate to teachings on anicca and anatta?
Think of what brought us to the Buddha in terms of the first noble truth. We want to pass over from death to the deathless. From the conditioned to the unconditioned (nibbana)
Once again, comparing two states. The comparative mind operates within a construction of time. How can thinking like this lead to freedom?
You know how comparator works? there is no time, its you compare inputs and when reaction happen then you have something going on what then you can focus on and find the source.
One input is already in place, it is the other input you try out till there is a reaction.

auto
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by auto » Sun May 20, 2018 5:26 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am
Circle5 wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:53 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:49 am

There is no experiencer of change.
There is no experiencer of change even with a belief in a self existing in the organism. There never was a self to begin with, just the opinion that it is, based on lack of information.
Even Advaita says this.
is going to save you?

There is a substance, concentration of particles. You don't know to avoid it and pull them to right place instead you willingly lead them into wrong channel or meridian in body and that will cause more things to do to get the same thing what could be done shortly.

thinking of there is no self may not save from woe.

woe=soul pain
---
for a gross example drinking alcohol will steal like three days to get back normal, don't die while drunk, drinking is dangerous. How long it takes t oget back to normal if get aroused by sensual content..
Last edited by auto on Sun May 20, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Grigoris
Posts: 281
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 20, 2018 5:32 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:02 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:16 am
So how does this relate to Buddhist practice? How does it relate to teachings on anicca and anatta?
Think of what brought us to the Buddha in terms of the first noble truth. We want to pass over from death to the deathless. From the conditioned to the unconditioned (nibbana)
Once again, comparing two states. The comparative mind operates within a construction of time. How can thinking like this lead to freedom?
In Mahayana Buddhism we talk about The Two Truths: relative and ultimate. The other thing to be noted is that they are considered two aspects of a whole and thus not contradictory.

Morality and ethical conduct are based in relative truth: right/wrong, wholesome/unwholesome, good/evil. But ultimately there is not right/wrong, etc... because they lack essential characteristics (ie they are empty of s elf nature). It is due to the fact there all things are empty of self-nature that relative notions can arise.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1305
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 20, 2018 7:14 pm

karma remembers who you are, even if you become someone else…

that doesn't seem impersonal, it seems very personal…
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1305
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 20, 2018 7:19 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am
Circle5 wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:53 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:49 am

There is no experiencer of change.
There is no experiencer of change even with a belief in a self existing in the organism. There never was a self to begin with, just the opinion that it is, based on lack of information.
Even Advaita says this.
No self is Advaita, not self is Buddhism.
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3337
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 20, 2018 7:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:14 pm
karma remembers who you are, even if you become someone else…
So kamma is something separate from you? How does kamma hold memory?

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1305
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:23 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:14 pm
karma remembers who you are, even if you become someone else…
So kamma is something separate from you? How does kamma hold memory?
saying karma is impersonal doesn't make sense

that's all
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun May 20, 2018 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16129
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: If mind = brain

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Krishnamurti post (largely) moved here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31934

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Grigoris
Posts: 281
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 20, 2018 8:21 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:14 pm
karma remembers who you are, even if you become someone else…
Translation: "Action remembers who you are, even if you become somebody else".

What does that even mean? How can action (kamma) remember something?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dinsdale, JamesTheGiant, Saengnapha and 50 guests