If mind = brain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by santa100 » Tue May 15, 2018 3:01 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:53 am
I searched the mind , it does not come up with sutta provide definition . If there is one, perhaps I am not familiar with the search functionality .
That's the problem. You only want to "search", but not to "read". Maybe if you spend some times to actually read the suttas, you'll be able to find out the answer for yourself. If you don't want to do that, at least try replacing the Read icon with a Google icon or something. By the way, there're 61 posts with tons of resources/references from the thread What is the Sixth sense base where you're the OP!

James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Tue May 15, 2018 3:14 am

santa100 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:01 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:53 am
I searched the mind , it does not come up with sutta provide definition . If there is one, perhaps I am not familiar with the search functionality .
That's the problem. You only want to "search", but not to "read". Maybe if you spend some times to actually read the suttas, you'll be able to find out the answer for yourself. If you don't want to do that, at least try replacing the Read icon with a Google icon or something.
Let's see what you said earlier :

"There's no support in the Canon for that. The six sense bases are usually expressed as the five "physical" sense bases plus the mind. If the mind was the same as the brain, it would've been lumped together with the other five to be expressed as the six "physical" sense bases "

I didn't say the mind is the brain , I say IF .
The problem is with you when you did not provide a definition to support your argument .
When I request you to give me a reference of the sutta that actually DEFINE mind, you cannot come up with one .
The problem is , there is No definition on the mind itself in the nikaya or Chinese Agama which I already searches .

IF YOU CAN COME UP WITH ONE IN THE SUTTA ,
I salute you !
Last edited by James Tan on Tue May 15, 2018 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
:reading:

santa100
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by santa100 » Tue May 15, 2018 3:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:14 am
Let's see what you said earlier :

"There's no support in the Canon for that. The six sense bases are usually expressed as the five "physical" sense bases plus the mind. If the mind was the same as the brain, it would've been lumped together with the other five to be expressed as the six "physical" sense bases "

I didn't say the mind is the brain , I say IF .
The problem is with you when you did not provide a definition to support your argument .
When I request you to give me a reference of the sutta that actually DEFINE mind, you cannot come up with one .
The problem is , there is No definition on the mind itself in the nikaya or Chinese Agama which I already searches .
You're just a troll. And I already provided the proof for that. You ask the same thing again after 61 posts from folks who tried to help you in the "What is the Six Sense Base" thread.

James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 am

santa100 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:16 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:14 am
Let's see what you said earlier :

"There's no support in the Canon for that. The six sense bases are usually expressed as the five "physical" sense bases plus the mind. If the mind was the same as the brain, it would've been lumped together with the other five to be expressed as the six "physical" sense bases "

I didn't say the mind is the brain , I say IF .
The problem is with you when you did not provide a definition to support your argument .
When I request you to give me a reference of the sutta that actually DEFINE mind, you cannot come up with one .
The problem is , there is No definition on the mind itself in the nikaya or Chinese Agama which I already searches .
You're just a troll. And I already provided the proof for that. You ask the same thing again after 61 posts from folks who tried to help you in the "What is the Six Sense Base" thread.
Come on santa100 , By Accusing me anything does not Answer the question , what is the meaning of mind ?!
:reading:

santa100
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by santa100 » Tue May 15, 2018 3:20 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 am
Come on santa100 , By Accusing me anything does not Answer the question , what is the meaning of mind ?!
Knowing that you're a troll, there's no use for me to give info. Why would I give you any more info. if after 61 posts in the other threads, you still troll with the same topic? An irony you keep attaching that Read icon at the end in every post of yours.

James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Tue May 15, 2018 3:23 am

Please read earlier DNS said , he said it is a good question , this probably is your biased .



I think there is nothing for us to continue the conversation , maybe you dislike me and accused me a troll or whatever , it does not matter .

I wish you good and well .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by santa100 » Tue May 15, 2018 3:25 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:23 am
Please read earlier DNS said , he said it is a good question , this probably is your biased .

I think there is nothing for us to continue the conversation , maybe you dislike me and accused me a troll or whatever , it does not matter .

I wish you good and well .
I simply let the fact speaks for itself. If you're sincerely seeking the answer to your question, as already mentioned, do spend some times to actually read the suttas and all the references in all 61 posts of your other thread. Good luck.

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mikenz66
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2018 3:29 am

For what the suttas say about "mind", have a look at this thread:
Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each other?
viewtopic.php?t=18316
And the pdf linked there:
viewtopic.php?t=18316#p257616
“Citta, Mano, Vinnana—A Psychosemantic Investigation”
by Rune E. A. Johansson
https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... ansson.pdf

Also this thread:
Citta, Mano, Viññana - Definitions and distinctions
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ci ... ions/4254/

:heart:
Mike

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Pondera
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Pondera » Tue May 15, 2018 4:10 am

“Brains” are not recognized as a body part by standard Buddhist texts. So, the mind is not that goopy, stringy mess of nerves in your skull. :tongue:

James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Tue May 15, 2018 4:34 am

Here is what bhante Sujato says . Linked above provided by Mike . Thanks Mike . I will slowly go through the links you provide .

1.Viṇṇāṇa is part of the khandhas and āyatanas, and hence pertains to the first noble truth: it is suffering.
2.Mano is typically used in an active sense of will or volition, closely related to kamma, and hence pertains to the second noble truth, the cause of suffering.
3.Citta is to be developed and thus pertains to the fourth noble truth.
The cessation of all these is, of course, the third noble truth.




In any case , no specific definition from the suttas .
I don't know Pali , the word mind is English and in Chinese is 心 ,therefore , I read before about the meaning of mind in the " a comprehensive manual of abhidhamma " by bhikkhu bodhi .

The question is , I would like to know if there is a Specific sutta that defines mind ?!


If there is NO sutta mentioning the meaning at all, do let me know .

Thank you for everyone .
Apologies if offended anyone .
:reading:

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mikenz66
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2018 5:38 am

Hi James,
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:34 am
The question is , I would like to know if there is a Specific sutta that defines mind ?!
I don't think so. The division into "mind" and "body" does not seem to be so rigid in the suttas and we have these three terms Mano, Citta, Viññāṇa, which are overlapping but not really the same thing.

Note that Mano and Viññāṇa are part of different lists, Mano the sense bases, and Viññāṇa the aggregates.

:heart:
Mike

James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Tue May 15, 2018 6:12 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 5:38 am
Hi James,
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:34 am
The question is , I would like to know if there is a Specific sutta that defines mind ?!
I don't think so. The division into "mind" and "body" does not seem to be so rigid in the suttas and we have these three terms Mano, Citta, Viññāṇa, which are overlapping but not really the same thing.

Note that Mano and Viññāṇa are part of different lists, Mano the sense bases, and Viññāṇa the aggregates.

:heart:
Mike
OK . I thought so.
You said Mano Citta and Vinnana not same .
But , According to the link given by you above, bhante Sujato seems to have a different say .

" While there have been many attempts to show that these are either the same or different, in my view that is missing the point somewhat. The terms are, generally speaking, synonyms, and their usage overlaps to some degree, but they tend to be used in different contexts: "


In the previous threads some says mind is a lumps in the heart . I don't know . No definite answer as it seems .

If the so called mind is brain, neuronal activities and nervous system (where the central nervous system is divided into two major parts: the brain and the spinal cord) , then , it is possible that
Something else (supernatural) link up the brain , body and interact with its object and give rise to consciousness which associated with its particular base.

Another possibility is, the mind could be linking to the brain and also the heart , but , this is my wild guess only .

Hopefully in the future someone can come up with an explanation that acceptable by everyone .
Thank you .

:namaste:
:reading:

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mikenz66
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2018 6:40 am

Hi James. I dont see any disagreement. The terms are somewhat synonymous, but not exactly, and they are used in different contexts.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Tue May 15, 2018 7:02 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:12 am
Hopefully in the future someone can come up with an explanation that acceptable by everyone .
Thank you .
:namaste:
That might be wishful thinking. Don't forget, the human organism is wired throughout the whole body, every cell. Every cell it is said is a microscosm. This is why some wise men have said that 'awakening' is a physical process.

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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 7:21 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:48 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:35 pm
If mind=brain then liberation would come with death, since brain matter cannot be reborn. That would make the idea mind=brain a nihilist position.
Could be, if the mind is brain , with the death come liberation, that is if everything is matter .
However , another possibility that one can
think is, the interaction between the brain and its object give rise to consciousness , it could be the brain acts as a medium for something supernatural to link up with the object . This consciousness is part of the supernatural that does not dissappear when human body disintegrates .
The consciousness is tainted with defilements hence carry on to the next life .
Unless , the defilements is eliminated , the rebirth take place once again .
Human existence contains name AND form. So of course there is an interaction between consciousness and the brain.

But that does not mean that consciousness IS the brain.

So mind=brain and mind=/=brain are both wrong views for human existence.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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