If mind = brain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bundokji
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Sat May 19, 2018 6:29 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:10 pm
Can we take an example ,
Take a look at this , 经验 ,
can the brain know what is it ?
What is it that you experience ?
There is an image with strokes appear in your seeing , other than that probably "don't know" .
Even don't know doesn't occur to you because that is comparing to something you know , what if you don't have any kind of knowledge at all, would you still be able to come up with any conclusion ?
No, but i fail to understand what point you are trying to make.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Circle5
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Circle5 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:10 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 4:00 pm
    Circle5 wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 2:01 pm
    If one gets shot and loses half his brain, the experiences that will arise after that will be different.
    You cannot know this first hand. You might have seen people with brain injury and they reported or appeared to be experiencing the world differently, and out of this, it is concluded that experience is dependent on the brain.

    Any conclusion is not original, it is the outcome of comparing two states.
    Yes exactly. You can observe a person losing half his brain and, through the way he is behaving (which can be radically different), one can conclude that experiences arising are different than before.

    What is wrong with this ? Are you trying to argue that a person who can't even eat anymore by himself or maybe can't even move has the same experiences as before losing half his brain ?

    Saengnapha
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 4:20 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 12:13 pm
    Saengnapha wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 11:35 am
    I'm not sure how we talk about the brain from any other point of view except the experiential. If we are talking factually, there is no problem.
    I do get what you are talking about when you describe your descriptions.
    We don't experience our brain, hence any talking about it includes belief/speculation. From that point of view, it is dogmatic.
    What do you experience, then? You experience brain function. That is what we are. I've no idea what you are trying to say at this point.

    Saengnapha
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 4:23 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 4:00 pm
    Circle5 wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 2:01 pm
    If one gets shot and loses half his brain, the experiences that will arise after that will be different.
    You cannot know this first hand. You might have seen people with brain injury and they reported or appeared to be experiencing the world differently, and out of this, it is concluded that experience is dependent on the brain.

    Any conclusion is not original, it is the outcome of comparing two states.
    Do you have a way of 'not' comparing two states? This is all that is going on. This is what the brain is doing all the time. If the brain becomes quiet, what happens to the comparative mind?

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    Bundokji
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am

    Circle5 wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 12:10 am
    Yes exactly. You can observe a person losing half his brain and, through the way he is behaving (which can be radically different), one can conclude that experiences arising are different than before.

    What is wrong with this ? Are you trying to argue that a person who can't even eat anymore by himself or maybe can't even move has the same experiences as before losing half his brain ?
    The idea of change is dependent on the idea of sameness (self). Experience itself tells us nothing about change. Experience is always what is taking place. The idea of change (which arises as an experience) is the outcome of comparing two states.

    What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).

    A thicket of views.
    And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

    This was the last word of the Tathagata.

    Saengnapha
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 8:58 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am
    Circle5 wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 12:10 am
    Yes exactly. You can observe a person losing half his brain and, through the way he is behaving (which can be radically different), one can conclude that experiences arising are different than before.

    What is wrong with this ? Are you trying to argue that a person who can't even eat anymore by himself or maybe can't even move has the same experiences as before losing half his brain ?
    The idea of change is dependent on the idea of sameness (self). Experience itself tells us nothing about change. Experience is always what is taking place. The idea of change (which arises as an experience) is the outcome of comparing two states.

    What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).

    A thicket of views.
    It can be said in many ways, but essentially I agree with you.

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    Bundokji
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 9:59 am

    Saengnapha wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 9:42 am
    Then how can you read any Theravada teachings? This is exactly what is being put forth in any tradition or any teaching. Prevention of this should not be based on refusal to read or observe things. Isn't this what we are really talking about, how our brains work? There's no one inside it. :D
    I do not read Theravada teachings in any systematic way. In my opinion, once the practitioner is familiar with the basics of the teachings, the rest of the practice should be reflecting on them.

    Also avoiding harm and knowing ones limitations is not a bad thing.
    And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

    This was the last word of the Tathagata.

    Dinsdale
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Dinsdale » Sun May 20, 2018 10:19 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 8:47 am
    Dinsdale wrote:
    Sat May 19, 2018 8:17 am
    It depends how we define "experience", but I think I see the distinction you're making. For me the point is about choosing to place attention on particular aspects of experience.
    Experience is what is known (past tense). Even if you see a phenomena for the first time, you would declare that you don't know it (in relation to the known).
    I think experience is just what we notice. We can choose to notice different aspects of experience.
    Buddha save me from new-agers!

    Dinsdale
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Dinsdale » Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am
    What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).
    Are you saying that with no self-view there is no experience of change?
    Buddha save me from new-agers!

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    Bundokji
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 10:35 am

    Dinsdale wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:19 am
    I think experience is just what we notice. We can choose to notice different aspects of experience.
    I agree with the first part of your statement, but the second part is hypothetical.

    When i say hypothetical, i don't mean its right or wrong or whether it exists or does not exist. It has a function, it plays an important role in conventional reality.

    The usual debate we encounter on whether free will (or choice) is real or delusion is missing the point in my opinion.
    And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

    This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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    Bundokji
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Bundokji » Sun May 20, 2018 10:39 am

    Dinsdale wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 am
    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am
    What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).
    Are you saying that with no self-view there is no experience of change?
    Logically, there can't be
    And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

    This was the last word of the Tathagata.

    Dinsdale
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    Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
    Location: Andromeda looks nice

    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Dinsdale » Sun May 20, 2018 11:15 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:35 am
    Dinsdale wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:19 am
    I think experience is just what we notice. We can choose to notice different aspects of experience.
    I agree with the first part of your statement, but the second part is hypothetical.

    When i say hypothetical, i don't mean its right or wrong or whether it exists or does not exist. It has a function, it plays an important role in conventional reality.

    The usual debate we encounter on whether free will (or choice) is real or delusion is missing the point in my opinion.
    Satipatthana practice involves making such choices. We choose to pay attention to particular aspects of experience.

    There is also the role of appropriate attention: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

    Actually in Theravada "experience" is represented by the five aggregates, the whole process. You have been focussing on the role of sanna ( perception/recognition )
    Last edited by Dinsdale on Sun May 20, 2018 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Buddha save me from new-agers!

    Dinsdale
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Dinsdale » Sun May 20, 2018 11:16 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:39 am
    Dinsdale wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 am
    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am
    What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).
    Are you saying that with no self-view there is no experience of change?
    Logically, there can't be
    So how does this relate to Buddhist practice? How does it relate to teachings on anicca and anatta?
    Buddha save me from new-agers!

    Saengnapha
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 11:48 am

    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 9:59 am
    Saengnapha wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 9:42 am
    Then how can you read any Theravada teachings? This is exactly what is being put forth in any tradition or any teaching. Prevention of this should not be based on refusal to read or observe things. Isn't this what we are really talking about, how our brains work? There's no one inside it. :D
    I do not read Theravada teachings in any systematic way. In my opinion, once the practitioner is familiar with the basics of the teachings, the rest of the practice should be reflecting on them.

    Also avoiding harm and knowing ones limitations is not a bad thing.
    Now that seems more to the point than reading teachings. :D

    Saengnapha
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    Re: If mind = brain

    Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 11:49 am

    Dinsdale wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 am
    Bundokji wrote:
    Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am
    What is it that makes the two states related/connected/comparable? the idea of a self (the agent who experience and who witnessed/got affected by the change).
    Are you saying that with no self-view there is no experience of change?
    There is no experiencer of change.

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