If mind = brain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 16, 2018 2:07 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am
Mind is not brain, but mind needs (a) brain.
No, actually, it doesn't.

There are many insects and animals that do not have a brain but possess a mind (sentience).

Also there are beings without physical form (asura, deva, hell beings, preta) that have a mind.

During bodily death mind continues to function without a brain.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Saengnapha
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:07 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am
Mind is not brain, but mind needs (a) brain.
No, actually, it doesn't.

There are many insects and animals that do not have a brain but possess a mind (sentience).

Also there are beings without physical form (asura, deva, hell beings, preta) that have a mind.

During bodily death mind continues to function without a brain.
How do you know this? Isn't this something you've read about, learned, from a book, and it has now become a belief?

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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm
How do you know this? Isn't this something you've read about, learned, from a book, and it has now become a belief?
Irrelevant question.

Here's a question for you: are you a Buddhist?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1188
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Thu May 17, 2018 3:19 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm
How do you know this? Isn't this something you've read about, learned, from a book, and it has now become a belief?
Irrelevant question.

Here's a question for you: are you a Buddhist?
IT's not irrelevant if you are making a statement you cannot support.
I am not a Buddhist as I've stated numerous times throughout various threads.

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Grigoris
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 17, 2018 7:07 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm
How do you know this? Isn't this something you've read about, learned, from a book, and it has now become a belief?
Irrelevant question.

Here's a question for you: are you a Buddhist?
IT's not irrelevant if you are making a statement you cannot support.
I am not a Buddhist as I've stated numerous times throughout various threads.
It is irrelevant.

Have you ever seen a black hole? How do you know they exist? Aren't they something you've read about, learned from a book and now you believe in black holes?

Now this, is you may have noticed, is a Buddhist forum. As such you will hear Buddhist theories, philosophies, reasoning, etc... If you don't want to hear them or do not agree with them, then maybe you should check out another forum which fits your belief system better?

Which is your belief system, by the way?

PS We know that insects and many other creatures have no brain and yet display sentience, so maybe you could start suspending your disbelief based on this fact?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

James Tan
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am

Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Disagreement on some issues is quite common .
Or is it other than Theravadin , are not allow ?

Why not buddhist display more kindness than chasing people away . Tolerances is the keyword .
:reading:

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Sam Vara » Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am
Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Disagreement on some issues is quite common .
Or is it other than Theravadin , are not allow ?

Why not buddhist display more kindness than chasing people away . Tolerances is the keyword .
Non-Buddhists are perfectly welcome to post on the forum. And so are different types of Buddhists, not just Theravadan.

I don't think anyone is being "chased away". There is occasionally some unkind and rough speech, which is regrettable. Everyone is responsible for their own words that are posted here, and also for their reactions to the words of others.

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 8:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am
Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Disagreement on some issues is quite common .
Or is it other than Theravadin , are not allow ?

Why not buddhist display more kindness than chasing people away . Tolerances is the keyword .
Non-Buddhists are perfectly welcome to post on the forum. And so are different types of Buddhists, not just Theravadan.

I don't think anyone is being "chased away". There is occasionally some unkind and rough speech, which is regrettable. Everyone is responsible for their own words that are posted here, and also for their reactions to the words of others.
Thanks Sam, sometimes the power of words might discourage people to participate .
Many disciples of the Buddha was from different ascetic groups .
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Dinsdale » Thu May 17, 2018 8:26 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am
Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Not from me. What I do object to is threads continually being derailed with non-Buddhist rhetoric.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Dinsdale » Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:49 am
Consequently, the mind cannot be known directly and in that sense not different from any other sense media. It can be known retrospectively "as a thought" similar to a sound, sight, bodily sensation, taste ...etc
Interesting point. Does this also apply to the five "physical" sense organs?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Thu May 17, 2018 8:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 am
Interesting point. Does this also apply to the five "physical" sense organs?
I am not sure if the five "physical" sense organs remain as a "thing" without the knowing faculty. Linguistically, they appear to have independent existence from the mind, but through first hand experience, there is no hearing, smelling, tasting ..etc without attention/intention.

For example, while i am typing this message to you, there are sounds/noises from the street nearby,. The sounds are audible, they are within the sphere of my ear consciousness, but unless i pay attention to them, i don't hear them. What is the criteria if i am hearing them or not? its my ability to recall them, so knowledge and memory seem to be one thing.

The above might bring us to some weird conclusions. Whenever i know that "i am experiencing" something, it means that its already gone.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Thu May 17, 2018 9:02 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:07 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm
Irrelevant question.

Here's a question for you: are you a Buddhist?
IT's not irrelevant if you are making a statement you cannot support.
I am not a Buddhist as I've stated numerous times throughout various threads.
It is irrelevant.

Have you ever seen a black hole? How do you know they exist? Aren't they something you've read about, learned from a book and now you believe in black holes?

Now this, is you may have noticed, is a Buddhist forum. As such you will hear Buddhist theories, philosophies, reasoning, etc... If you don't want to hear them or do not agree with them, then maybe you should check out another forum which fits your belief system better?

Which is your belief system, by the way?

PS We know that insects and many other creatures have no brain and yet display sentience, so maybe you could start suspending your disbelief based on this fact?
You are projecting quite a lot of images with your response. All conditioned, mind you. The only black hole I could conceivably believe in was the womb that I crawled out of.

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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 17, 2018 9:14 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:02 am
You are projecting quite a lot of images with your response. All conditioned, mind you. The only black hole I could conceivably believe in was the womb that I crawled out of.
I am not projecting anything. Actually, I am using the identical logic you used when you replied to my post. I figure if it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander. Seems I was wrong. ;)
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

2600htz
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: If mind = brain

Post by 2600htz » Thu May 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Hello:

I think mind can be tied to a body and physical matter, and in that case it would be hard to say brain does not condition mind,but there are also formless beings, possesing no form or brain.

Regards.

Circle5
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Circle5 » Thu May 17, 2018 2:48 pm

If mind=brain, then neuroplasticity and the placebo effect should not exist.

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