If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto » Sat May 12, 2018 1:25 pm

One requirement for enlightenment is seeing enlightened being. It appears as light orb and you will have to accept it, invite it beforehand. But you are not from this world when this happen, via discipline you appear there while still alive here and might have not much clue what is going on.
When enlightened being like Buddha was alive, he also teach and meet people and they got enlightened. They saw enlightened being, at first they won't recognize Buddha but after getting teachings they recognize and that is seeing the light, not seeing flesh body.

But when enlightened being leaves then darkness comes. And we will have 'our time and space' like every day we want to have our time where we do our things after working also different other breaks like eating food, naps etc. Actually the dip to darkness or absence of mind happens a lot like every minute even more frequent. Basically the sun is on the other side of planet, seeing the sun is also kind of enlightenment, also havign a dream where you see sun counts for enlightenment.

If there is no enlightened being in realm its sunyata. If you recognize sunyata you will have a faith that enlightened being(light, sun) will come and will release enlightened beings into that nothingness space what is your "me time". Those who are attached to copulation will release millions of beings through various flesh realm means even there are requirements like a spirit is needed who will evoke desire in you.

SarathW
Posts: 9996
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 12, 2018 1:28 pm

[quot these low-quality videos.e] [/quote]
The teaching of this monk is very profound.
You do not have to watch the video to answer my question.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1525
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by cappuccino » Sat May 12, 2018 1:45 pm

Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.

Viññana Sutta

auto
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto » Sat May 12, 2018 2:19 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:45 pm
Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.

Viññana Sutta
Then Stream entry is easy peasy.

Can you change burning feeling into flowery fluffy feeling could be a test for are you able to also change the phenomena. But to qualify for stream entry you don't have to prove it experimentally, but only know how to avoid getting burned. Basically if you know that fire burns, you then won't put your finger into fire and 'states of woe' destiny is countered, stream-entry confirmed.

Also by that logic we know what other paths are too since you need multiple time to get burned before your last time, after what you actually realize it burns and hurts and you also know ignorance that you have failed so many times.

auto
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto » Sat May 12, 2018 2:37 pm


auto
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto » Sat May 12, 2018 3:35 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:45 pm
Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.

Viññana Sutta
The other way to understand consciousness is.

First of the things like cars, games, food are all not changing, what is changing is consciousness what arises from contact. Bascially a desire to eat ice cream, ice cream is icecream, but the consciousness what happened by the desire will start fade, disappear and we are not abel to enjoy it forever, like also with games new game new desire, but we get bored from it, it means the consciousness starts to end or the end is very near and suffering surfaces.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1823
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat May 12, 2018 4:48 pm

As i understand it;
when taken as pairs the noble individuals are 8, so the two lowest are a Sotapannas pre and post attainment of Nibbana.

it is my conviction that the Faith-Follower and Dhamma-Followers may be refered to as Sotapannas and that they may not know and doubt themselves. One who attained knowledge and vision, has realized the cessation of formations and Nibbana will know it for sure.

A relevant story is about Mahanama who was doubting himself because he got angry at his servants and questioned the Tathagata about his state, i don't remember the details and not sure where to find it tho.

Also in Sotapatti chapter of SN there are some people to whom the Tathagata seems to tell that they are Sotapannas, seemingly as if they did not know.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Zom » Sat May 12, 2018 6:02 pm

A relevant story is about Mahanama who was doubting himself because he got angry at his servants and questioned the Tathagata about his state, i don't remember the details and not sure where to find it tho.
Mahanama was once-returner as far as I remember. And still he was afraid to die in a defiled state of mind, obviously, because he didn't know he was one. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Even in a case of non-returners, it seems, they are not completely sure about their attainments:

And whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption. If I pass away before the Buddha, it wouldn’t be surprising if the Buddha declares of me: ‘The householder Citta is bound by no fetter that might return him to this world.’”

thepea
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea » Sat May 12, 2018 6:22 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:28 pm
[quot these low-quality videos.e]
The teaching of this monk is very profound.
You do not have to watch the video to answer my question.
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not, how will I ever know when I can’t understand a word of what he’s saying.
I have to take your word for it, and that’s not something I wish to do when discussing him.
It ends up being a one sided conversation.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1823
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat May 12, 2018 6:36 pm

A relevant story is about Mahanama who was doubting himself because he got angry at his servants and questioned the Tathagata about his state
correction: id strike out the red part

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Polar Bear » Sat May 12, 2018 8:19 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:45 am
That makes sense, thank you bhante. As for not concealing, this means confessing to either a teacher or fellow practitioner correct? In other words, it’s different than the alcoholic in AA who makes an account of all his wrongs and goes around to everybody he has wronged to make amends; instead the stream enterer is only necessitated to reveal to a kalyāṇamitta and may or may not make amends with those he has wronged. Would that be correct?

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

thepea
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea » Sat May 12, 2018 10:05 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:19 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:45 am
That makes sense, thank you bhante. As for not concealing, this means confessing to either a teacher or fellow practitioner correct? In other words, it’s different than the alcoholic in AA who makes an account of all his wrongs and goes around to everybody he has wronged to make amends; instead the stream enterer is only necessitated to reveal to a kalyāṇamitta and may or may not make amends with those he has wronged. Would that be correct?

:anjali:
Sorry I may not be following you and bhante correctly.
If I’m understanding a sotapanna has perfect sila, what would or could a sotapanna do that would necessitate a confession?

SarathW
Posts: 9996
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 pm

Sorry I may not be following you and bhante correctly.
Please read the post on 12th May from Bhante Dhammanando
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thepea
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea » Sat May 12, 2018 11:50 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 pm
Sorry I may not be following you and bhante correctly.
Please read the post on 12th May from Bhante Dhammanando
I did I’m just unsure of why the sotapanna would confess if he/she would have perfect precepts?
Or am I misunderstanding something in communication between polar and bhante

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4157
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun May 13, 2018 1:44 am

thepea wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:05 pm
Sorry I may not be following you and bhante correctly.
If I’m understanding a sotapanna has perfect sila, what would or could a sotapanna do that would necessitate a confession?
The Ratanasutta doesn't specify exactly how naughty it's possible for sotāpannas to be (a much debated subject on which Dhamma Wheel already has several threads). It says only: (1) that they are incapable of committing the "six great crimes", and (2) that any evil kammas of body, speech or mind that they do commit will not be concealed by them. The six great crimes are the usual five (patricide, matricide, etc.) together with taking refuge in an outside teacher.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/kp6

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 81 guests