Mindfulness is the direct path?

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kverty
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Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by kverty » Sun May 06, 2018 5:03 pm

Right mindfulness is one of the eight path factors but it is also described in the suttas (satipatthana sutta) as the direct path to nibbana. So if you practice the four bases for mindfulness you also practice the noble eightfold path? How do these two correspond to each other?

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cappuccino
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 06, 2018 5:40 pm

mindfulness means to remember the teaching

whenever that would help, which is always

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mikenz66
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2018 6:49 pm

kverty wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:03 pm
So if you practice the four bases for mindfulness you also practice the noble eightfold path?
I think that it is implicit in the Satipatthana Sutta that one would also be practicing other aspects of the eight-fold path, such as right livelihood and so on. The first three sections are about observing, and building mindfulness and concentration, but the fourth section is more "active". Notice that in the fourth section there is work on eliminating the fetters, establishing the awakening factors, and understanding the Noble Truths.

Satipatthana at that level isn't just being mindful of what it going on. Don't get it confused with introductory instructions on mindfulness...

:heart:
Mike

rightviewftw
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 7:29 pm

Development of the Four Satipatthana is the direct path
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 06, 2018 7:57 pm

kverty wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:03 pm
Right mindfulness is one of the eight path factors but it is also described in the suttas (satipatthana sutta) as the direct path to nibbana. So if you practice the four bases for mindfulness you also practice the noble eightfold path? How do these two correspond to each other?
Mindfulness means to remember to practise the teachings. To practise right view, right intention, right speech, right action & right livelihood requires right mindfulness. Refer to MN 117, which says for each path factor:
One is mindful to abandon wrong dhamma & to enter & remain in right dhamma: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right dhamma.

MN 117
For example, right view tell us we should give up craving, as follows:
And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view. SN 45.8

'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' SN 56.11
Therefore if you are mindful you act to give up craving; as described repeatedly in the Satipatthana Sutta, with the following instruction:
He remains... mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

MN 10
When the mind gives up craving, it will be quiet & sensitive and will know the breathing.

paul
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by paul » Sun May 06, 2018 9:13 pm

kverty wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:03 pm
Right mindfulness is one of the eight path factors but it is also described in the suttas (satipatthana sutta) as the direct path to nibbana. So if you practice the four bases for mindfulness you also practice the noble eightfold path? How do these two correspond to each other?
It is right to approach the NEP through the Satipatthana sutta, and as mikenz66 has noted, the fourth foundation of mindfulness provides the information on how mindfulness is related to the NEP, remembering that the fourth noble truth is the NEP, so it is better to think in terms of the four noble truths. In the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta, SN 56:11, the Buddha sets out the responsibilities of each truth:

‘…this noble truth of stress is to be comprehended…
this noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned…
this noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced…
this noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed.”



“Under the topic of the fourth frame of reference, DN 22 lists five sets of categories to keep in mind: the five hindrances, the five clinging-aggregates, the sixfold sense media, the seven factors for awakening, and the four noble truths. As we have already noted, the four noble truths and their duties form the overarching framework for understanding how right mindfulness should function. The remaining sets of categories fall under these truths and the duties appropriate to them. The hindrances, as a cause of stress, are to be abandoned. The clinging-aggregates, as the primary example of the truth of stress, are to be comprehended to the point of dispassion. As for the sixfold sense-media, the discussion in DN 22 focuses on the fetters that arise in dependence on these media—fetters that as a cause of stress should be abandoned. The seven factors for awakening, as aspects of the path, are to be developed.

What this means is that these categories are intended as frameworks to keep in mind to guide your ardency in trying to fulfill the duties of the four noble truths. DN 22 gives no indication of when a particular framework might be more useful than another, but a few observations might be helpful here. The sixfold sense-media form the framework for the practice of restraint of the senses. The five hindrances and seven factors for awakening are most often treated as guides for what to abandon and what to develop when bringing the mind to concentration. The five clinging-aggregates are a useful framework for inducing dispassion in two circumstances: when you want to analyze any phenomena that would pull you out of concentration into greed and distress with reference to the world; and when you want to develop dispassion for the world of becoming created by the concentration itself. The four noble truths provide an overarching framework for the practice as a whole. As we noted, the description of right mindfulness in MN 117—in which mindfulness circles around the first five factors of the path to bring about right concentration—would count as an application of this framework. It also illustrates how this framework arches over the others in providing guidance in how to bring mindfulness to bear on every part of the path.
It would be impossible to list all the ways in which these frameworks can be put to use. The following discussion is meant simply to provide a few suggestions for further inquiry.”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro.

paul
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by paul » Mon May 07, 2018 11:14 am

Thanissaro: Supremacy of Four Noble Truths:
https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-far-shore/

2600htz
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by 2600htz » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:34 pm

Hello:

I think the confusion comes because people assume practicing the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta only means "noting, understanding, contemplating".
But that is just a fraction of the sutta instructions.

Regards.

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Bundokji
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:53 pm

I think the answer lies in the role of objectivity.

Enlightenment is described as seeing things as they really are. If enlightenment is the end of suffering, then we suffer because our view of reality is distorted.

If the goal is to end suffering caused by distortion,, then the path begins with objectivity and ends with objectivity. When we begin observing ourselves objectively, this very observation should result in corrective actions that helps us eliminate the distortion through developing the other factors of the path which is a gradual process. If our observations do not lead to developing other factors of the path, then we are not observing objectively, we are still following our whims and desires (our distortions).

If the eight fold path is not the objective way to end suffering, then the Buddha's teachings would not be effective or true.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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budo
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by budo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:52 am

My personal opinion is that mindfulness by itself is not enough.

In order for your practice to be complete it must have:

"The perceptions of impermanence, not-self, ugliness, drawbacks, giving up, fading away, cessation, dissatisfaction with the whole world, non-desire for all conditions, and mindfulness of breathing." -AN10.60

He then goes on to explain how to do each of those 10 perceptions in AN10.60 through anapanasati meditation.

The Buddha shows that people who do metta or jhana without those 10 perceptions will be reborn in heaven and then afterwards in hell, animal, or ghost realm, and those who do those 10 perceptions are not reborn. Those suttas are AN3.116, AN4.123, AN4.124, AN4.125, AN4.126

This is the third noble truth, from Maha-satipathana sutta:

"[c] "And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving."

befriend
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by befriend » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:49 am

I don't think it means you are certain to go to the animal ghost or hell realms by doing metta I think it just means there's still a possibility. Buddha was a brahma for a while after spending seven years doing metta that didn't cause him to go to hell though after being in a heaven realm.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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budo
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by budo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:05 am

Gotama was reborn as an animal many times. Even after his life as Sumedha the brahman. Therefore Brahma Viharas and Jhanas do not guarantee one will stay in the heavenly realms forever.

befriend
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by befriend » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:17 am

I agree that heaven isn't a dependable eternal refuge. But metta is not a cause to be reborn eventually in an afflicted realm.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by befriend » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:18 am

It is possible to come back to a human state directly after being in heaven.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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budo
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Re: Mindfulness is the direct path?

Post by budo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:27 am

befriend wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:18 am
It is possible to come back to a human state directly after being in heaven.
The suttas say

"An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is over, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm."

"But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is over, then they’re extinguished in that very life. "

Whether if it's possible or not I don't know.

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