can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

[Spiny Norman]

it's a matter of faith, only a matter of degree of strength, of faith

It's a matter of courage, the courage not to cling to beliefs.

[Kim OHara]

In Western culture, science serves in the role that religion used to occupy, as a guide to what educated people ought to think. And as science generally only recognises a certain class of phenomena, then it is widely assumed that only such phenomena can be considered to exist. This is the basis of scientific materialism, which widely influential even among many who don't understand what it refers to. But if you accept scientific materialism as authoritative, then there probably isn't an easy way to accomodate belief in rebirth or the idea of other domains of being or many other facets of Buddhism (or any other spiritual or religious path).

I personally think we need to learn how to intelligently question scientific materialism without necessarily going to the opposite extreme of being willing to believe anything. But it needs to be said that there are very big gaps in the materialist understanding of the nature of things. So the effect is that materialism is also irrational, even though it presents itself as 'scientific' and 'rational'. The gaps in materialism then turn up in indirect ways, often as a sense of insecurity or a sense of lack or of meaninglessness. Which is why scientific materialism often gives rise to plain old economic materialism, the urge to compulsively acquire goods and power to fill that nagging sense of lack.

Anyway - as far as practice of Buddhism is concerned, one needn't worry too much about it. There are many unknowns. Learning to be comfortable with that makes it much easier to just learn as you go along.

I agree with you, Wayfarer, but/so I'm going to rearrange part of that:
Since "we need to learn how to intelligently question scientific materialism without necessarily going to the opposite extreme of being willing to believe anything," a good starting point is that "it needs to be said that there are very big gaps in the materialist understanding of the nature of things."
OWTTE.
I think.


Kim

[cappuccino]

it's a matter of faith, only a matter of degree of strength, of faith

It's a matter of courage, the courage not to cling to beliefs.

The Five Spiritual Faculties
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el065.html

[Komuso]

Science is the self correcting pursuit of reality as it is.

If it is real, then science will engage it sooner or later.

As humans continue to advance, the ability to take large amounts of complex data (causes and conditions) and draw insights from them will make phenomena that seemed to transcend understanding comprehensible. It is simply a matter of time.

I find comfort in the fact that the Buddha Dhamma is the scientific pursuit to the end of dukkha. The dhamma is a come and see project. One does not have to believe in anything, all one has to do is try it out and see if it bears fruit or not.

[Saengnapha]

The dhamma is a come and see project. One does not have to believe in anything, all one has to do is try it out and see if it bears fruit or not.

But this is not the way Buddhism is taught in reality, at least not any form of Buddhism that I am familiar with. Because of the extensive analysis and cosmological treatises that have become topics for scholars the world over, the assumptions, beliefs, and practices seem to dominate the landscape much more so than the special insight and wisdom which underlies the Buddha's message. The form has subsumed the landscape and Buddhism has turned into another religion to be followed come what may. It's all second-hand and isn't that what belief is? You don't try something if you are not looking for something from it. Motive is the fact. There is no project of insight. It is a misunderstanding.

[binocular]

The dhamma is a come and see project. One does not have to believe in anything, all one has to do is try it out and see if it bears fruit or not.

But this is not the way Buddhism is taught in reality, at least not any form of Buddhism that I am familiar with. Because of the extensive analysis and cosmological treatises that have become topics for scholars the world over, the assumptions, beliefs, and practices seem to dominate the landscape much more so than the special insight and wisdom which underlies the Buddha's message. The form has subsumed the landscape and Buddhism has turned into another religion to be followed come what may. It's all second-hand and isn't that what belief is?
/.../ There is no project of insight. /.../

Agreed.

The only way it can be such a "project" if it is taken for granted that what Buddhism teaches is true and worthwhile.

[Komuso]

The dhamma is a come and see project. One does not have to believe in anything, all one has to do is try it out and see if it bears fruit or not.

But this is not the way Buddhism is taught in reality, at least not any form of Buddhism that I am familiar with. Because of the extensive analysis and cosmological treatises that have become topics for scholars the world over, the assumptions, beliefs, and practices seem to dominate the landscape much more so than the special insight and wisdom which underlies the Buddha's message. The form has subsumed the landscape and Buddhism has turned into another religion to be followed come what may. It's all second-hand and isn't that what belief is?
/.../ There is no project of insight. /.../

Agreed.

The only way it can be such a "project" if it is taken for granted that what Buddhism teaches is true and worthwhile.

I disagree. For the majority of time i have considered Buddhism it has not been from the position of a follower. My approach has been to investigate it claims in an agnostic way. I am not interested in being a follower. I am however interested in the possibility of the cessation of Dukkha.

Despite the "degenerate" state Buddhism may be in at least we know the Buddha said to not just believe but to test it and see. If I am to fail and be in error i will do so not by blind belief just because that's how it is done these days.

[binocular]

My approach has been to investigate it claims in an agnostic way.

How did you do that?
Could you share some details of this investigation?

[Saengnapha]

Despite the "degenerate" state Buddhism may be in at least we know the Buddha said to not just believe but to test it and see. If I am to fail and be in error i will do so not by blind belief just because that's how it is done these days.

No, you do not even know if the Buddha said what you think he said. You believe it or assume it, already. Why? Because you want to change yourself into a different image, a man who doesn't suffer. Of course, I sympathize with this, but how will you 'test' it? You can only use your conditioned mind which is the problem itself. All the ideas, images, desires..........When will you see this? Tomorrow? Next January? Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.

[Sam Vara]

Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.

Alternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.

[Saengnapha]

Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.

Alternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.

Exactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.

[Sam Vara]

Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.

Alternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.

Exactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.

So there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?

[Saengnapha]

Alternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.

Exactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.

So there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?

Try a little harder, Sam.

[Sam Vara]

Exactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.

So there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?

Try a little harder, Sam.

Sure! You are unable to show that there is anything to recommend your view over those that you habitually criticise.

(Is that hard enough? I won't go any harder unless you PM me a "safe word"...)

[Saengnapha]

So there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?

Try a little harder, Sam.

Sure! You are unable to show that there is anything to recommend your view over those that you habitually criticise.

(Is that hard enough? I won't go any harder unless you PM me a "safe word"...)

Negation of all views is a necessary outcome. No one can convince anyone else of this.