It's a matter of courage, the courage not to cling to beliefs.cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue May 08, 2018 7:18 pm it's a matter of faith, only a matter of degree of strength, of faith
can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
I agree with you, Wayfarer, but/so I'm going to rearrange part of that:Way~Farer wrote: ↑Wed May 09, 2018 11:57 pm In Western culture, science serves in the role that religion used to occupy, as a guide to what educated people ought to think. And as science generally only recognises a certain class of phenomena, then it is widely assumed that only such phenomena can be considered to exist. This is the basis of scientific materialism, which widely influential even among many who don't understand what it refers to. But if you accept scientific materialism as authoritative, then there probably isn't an easy way to accomodate belief in rebirth or the idea of other domains of being or many other facets of Buddhism (or any other spiritual or religious path).
I personally think we need to learn how to intelligently question scientific materialism without necessarily going to the opposite extreme of being willing to believe anything. But it needs to be said that there are very big gaps in the materialist understanding of the nature of things. So the effect is that materialism is also irrational, even though it presents itself as 'scientific' and 'rational'. The gaps in materialism then turn up in indirect ways, often as a sense of insecurity or a sense of lack or of meaninglessness. Which is why scientific materialism often gives rise to plain old economic materialism, the urge to compulsively acquire goods and power to fill that nagging sense of lack.
Anyway - as far as practice of Buddhism is concerned, one needn't worry too much about it. There are many unknowns. Learning to be comfortable with that makes it much easier to just learn as you go along.
Since "we need to learn how to intelligently question scientific materialism without necessarily going to the opposite extreme of being willing to believe anything," a good starting point is that "it needs to be said that there are very big gaps in the materialist understanding of the nature of things."
OWTTE.
I think.
Kim
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
The Five Spiritual FacultiesDinsdale wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 10:00 amIt's a matter of courage, the courage not to cling to beliefs.cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue May 08, 2018 7:18 pm it's a matter of faith, only a matter of degree of strength, of faith
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el065.html
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Science is the self correcting pursuit of reality as it is.
If it is real, then science will engage it sooner or later.
As humans continue to advance, the ability to take large amounts of complex data (causes and conditions) and draw insights from them will make phenomena that seemed to transcend understanding comprehensible. It is simply a matter of time.
I find comfort in the fact that the Buddha Dhamma is the scientific pursuit to the end of dukkha. The dhamma is a come and see project. One does not have to believe in anything, all one has to do is try it out and see if it bears fruit or not.
If it is real, then science will engage it sooner or later.
As humans continue to advance, the ability to take large amounts of complex data (causes and conditions) and draw insights from them will make phenomena that seemed to transcend understanding comprehensible. It is simply a matter of time.
I find comfort in the fact that the Buddha Dhamma is the scientific pursuit to the end of dukkha. The dhamma is a come and see project. One does not have to believe in anything, all one has to do is try it out and see if it bears fruit or not.
Komuso
Namo Amitabha Buddhaya
Namo Amitabha Buddhaya
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
But this is not the way Buddhism is taught in reality, at least not any form of Buddhism that I am familiar with. Because of the extensive analysis and cosmological treatises that have become topics for scholars the world over, the assumptions, beliefs, and practices seem to dominate the landscape much more so than the special insight and wisdom which underlies the Buddha's message. The form has subsumed the landscape and Buddhism has turned into another religion to be followed come what may. It's all second-hand and isn't that what belief is? You don't try something if you are not looking for something from it. Motive is the fact. There is no project of insight. It is a misunderstanding.
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Agreed.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 amBut this is not the way Buddhism is taught in reality, at least not any form of Buddhism that I am familiar with. Because of the extensive analysis and cosmological treatises that have become topics for scholars the world over, the assumptions, beliefs, and practices seem to dominate the landscape much more so than the special insight and wisdom which underlies the Buddha's message. The form has subsumed the landscape and Buddhism has turned into another religion to be followed come what may. It's all second-hand and isn't that what belief is?
/.../ There is no project of insight. /.../
The only way it can be such a "project" if it is taken for granted that what Buddhism teaches is true and worthwhile.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
I disagree. For the majority of time i have considered Buddhism it has not been from the position of a follower. My approach has been to investigate it claims in an agnostic way. I am not interested in being a follower. I am however interested in the possibility of the cessation of Dukkha.binocular wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 9:51 amAgreed.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 amBut this is not the way Buddhism is taught in reality, at least not any form of Buddhism that I am familiar with. Because of the extensive analysis and cosmological treatises that have become topics for scholars the world over, the assumptions, beliefs, and practices seem to dominate the landscape much more so than the special insight and wisdom which underlies the Buddha's message. The form has subsumed the landscape and Buddhism has turned into another religion to be followed come what may. It's all second-hand and isn't that what belief is?
/.../ There is no project of insight. /.../
The only way it can be such a "project" if it is taken for granted that what Buddhism teaches is true and worthwhile.
Despite the "degenerate" state Buddhism may be in at least we know the Buddha said to not just believe but to test it and see. If I am to fail and be in error i will do so not by blind belief just because that's how it is done these days.
Komuso
Namo Amitabha Buddhaya
Namo Amitabha Buddhaya
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
How did you do that?
Could you share some details of this investigation?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
No, you do not even know if the Buddha said what you think he said. You believe it or assume it, already. Why? Because you want to change yourself into a different image, a man who doesn't suffer. Of course, I sympathize with this, but how will you 'test' it? You can only use your conditioned mind which is the problem itself. All the ideas, images, desires..........When will you see this? Tomorrow? Next January? Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Alternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:19 am Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Exactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 6:55 amAlternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:19 am Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
So there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 8:28 amExactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 6:55 amAlternatively, we might want to consider that Saengnapha's view on this is a "dead thing". We might want to start practising and see what happens.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:19 am Buddhism is a dead thing. You can't discover anything from dead things. Your conditioned state is all that there is. Stop trying to change this and see what happens.
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Try a little harder, Sam.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 8:40 amSo there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 8:28 amExactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.
Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Sure! You are unable to show that there is anything to recommend your view over those that you habitually criticise.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 8:43 amTry a little harder, Sam.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 8:40 amSo there is nothing more to recommend your view than the views you habitually criticise?Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 8:28 am
Exactly!! Thank you. I've been trying to say this very thing. All conditioning is dead. Nothing survives one moment to another except the images you hold on to.
(Is that hard enough? I won't go any harder unless you PM me a "safe word"...)
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Re: can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?
Negation of all views is a necessary outcome. No one can convince anyone else of this.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 9:03 amSure! You are unable to show that there is anything to recommend your view over those that you habitually criticise.
(Is that hard enough? I won't go any harder unless you PM me a "safe word"...)