can you be atheist and theravada buddhist?

[dudette]

in traditional theravada buddhism there are devas and rebirth.
Can I reject them and still be theravada buddhist?
I mean I talked to some buddhists and they said that I am not allowed to do that I am stupid/irrational because rebirth explain everything.

How does it look like in other places? Is it just in my environment that devas and rebirth is a MUST when you are practicing buddhism?

[User1249x]

I think there is a difference between a person who has a lot of skeptical doubt and another who holds settled views regarding those things as impossible.

People hold all kinds of views and still identify as Theravada nowadays, both eternalist and annihilationist views are seemingly common.

That being said it seems to me that a person who held fixed view regarding reincarnation and deva-worlds as an impossibility, i do not really know on what basis he would be identifying himself as a Buddhist. An atheist or annihilationist would be a more accurate designation i guess.

[pilgrim]

I think most lay-people including myself, think we believe in Rebirth, but really just entertain the possibility or still have a lot of doubts about it. We spend years educating ourselves because of the certainty we need to earn a livelihood in the future. Similarly, if I am fairly certain about Rebirth or if there is absolutely convincing evidence, I'd drop everything and go ordain. Nothing else is worth doing with life.

[cappuccino]

as you read the scriptures, faith will develop…

[paul]

How does it look like in other places? Is it just in my environment that devas and rebirth is a MUST when you are practicing buddhism?

Kamma or cause and effect is the first stage of Right View (which is the first link of the Noble Eightfold Path) and it is compulsory to recognize it in the following sense, otherwise the Buddhist practitioner has no means of progress.

“The most important feature of kamma is its capacity to produce results corresponding to the ethical quality of the action. An immanent universal law holds sway over volitional actions, bringing it about that these actions issue in retributive consequences, called vipaka, “ripenings,” or phala, “fruits.” The law connecting actions with their fruits works on the simple principle that unwholesome actions ripen in suffering, wholesome actions in happiness. The ripening need not come right away; it need not come in the present life at all.
When the stored up kamma meets with conditions favorable to its maturation, it awakens from its dormant state and triggers off some effect that brings due compensation for the original action. The ripening may take place in the present life, in the next life, or in some life subsequent to the next. A kamma may ripen by producing rebirth into the next existence, thus determining the basic form of life; or it may ripen in the course of a lifetime, issuing in our varied experiences of happiness and pain, success and failure, progress and decline. But whenever it ripens and in whatever way, the same principle invariably holds: wholesome actions yield favorable results, unwholesome actions yield unfavorable results.

To recognize this principle is to hold right view of the mundane kind. This view at once excludes the multiple forms of wrong view with which it is incompatible. As it affirms that our actions have an influence on our destiny continuing into future lives, it opposes the nihilistic view which regards this life as our only existence and holds that consciousness terminates with death. “—-“The Noble Eightfold Path”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

[Dhammarakkhito]

some great answers so far. i will link you a particular text

"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... index.html

spontaneously born beings (opapātikā) are considered devas. they dont take birth in a womb. 'next world' refers to rebirth, tho i dont have the pali handy. if you look at dependent origination,

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

with craving as condition becoming with becoming as condition birth. rebirth occurs from moment to moment via the law of impermanence. the aggregates have a mark of non-self, it is suffering that arises and passes away. clinging/sustenance (upādāna) is like adding fuel to a fire (this is one of the buddha's similes) that fire continues to burn taking up another set of aggregates. annihilationism is refuted in DN 1 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
it's much easier to accept rebirth, albeit without direct knowledge, if you recognize this process as impersonal. please btw help me if i didnt explain well, it might look a lot better in my head than on paper
because rebirth and devas are talked about - with buddha even talking directly to devas - in so many of the early buddhist texts, which are supposed in a conservative tradition like theravada to be real buddha word, one if rejecting these has to consider that the buddha lied or he did not have perfect enlightenment, which completely destroys buddhism. we operate on his exposition of the dhamma to be unflawed and take refuge; saddhā, faith or conviction, is invaluable. "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html i would contribute more or refine my contribution but my fathers side grandma just called so

[justindesilva]

in traditional theravada buddhism there are devas and rebirth.
Can I reject them and still be theravada buddhist?
I mean I talked to some buddhists and they said that I am not allowed to do that I am stupid/irrational because rebirth explain everything.

How does it look like in other places? Is it just in my environment that devas and rebirth is a MUST when you are practicing buddhism?

The term atheist means a person who does not believe in gods or an almighty god. Even with Hindu concepts god or gods are eternal souls. But the devas ( though translated as god) are not eternal and they are beings living in higher realms mentioned by lord budda. Devas from time to time may be born in this earth as hjman beings.
Secondly rebirth is not re incarnation. A being continues in samsara. But the status of being according to karma at the end of a physicak life will change. Hence actually it is the continuance of life which has to be considered intellectually and carefully. The term rebirth is often misleading to many even buddhists.

[Polar Bear]

If an anthropologist went to a Theravada Buddhist monastery and studied the lay people there and saw them giving food to monks, practicing meditation, bowing to the Buddha statue and monks, she would regard them as theravadins. If in the course of her observation it was revealed that one of the lay attendees of the monastery didn’t believe in rebirth, she would still consider him a theravadin. If there was controversy in the community regarding whether that non-believer was really a theravadin, she would note that within the Theravada community there is controversy about who counts as a genuine member. But she would still consider the non-believer a theravadin.

However, a lay person who exists as a member of that community might have read texts and heard talks that state rebirth is a reality and a necessity of believing in it to have right view, and might therefore consider anyone who does not believe in rebirth to have wrong view, and therefore to not be a real Buddhist. Another member of that lay community might believe in rebirth and yet consider someone who doesn’t to still be a good theravadin if they practice generosity, virtue, meditation, and visit the monastery.

You’ll get different answers depending on who you ask, so all there is to do is label yourself however thou willst and get on with life as you see fit; hopefully as some kind of generous, virtuous, meditating, monastery visitor.

[dharmacorps]

There are no dhamma police that are going to punish you if you don't believe certain things. Buddhism can be likened to a system of education, rather than a set of beliefs you subscribe to as a be all end all.

That said, if you do choose to follow this system of training, the Buddha's teachings can be a working hypothesis. You don't have to make decisions about what you believe exist or don't exist. Just do the practice and keep your ideas loose and don't worry about it.

[JamesTheGiant]

There are no dhamma police that are going to punish you if you don't believe certain things. Buddhism can be likened to a system of education, rather than a set of beliefs you subscribe to as a be all end all.

That said, if you do choose to follow this system of training, the Buddha's teachings can be a working hypothesis. You don't have to make decisions about what you believe exist or don't exist. Just do the practice and keep your ideas loose and don't worry about it.

That's it right there! Exactly.

[Kim OHara]

in traditional theravada buddhism there are devas and rebirth.
Can I reject them and still be theravada buddhist?
I mean I talked to some buddhists and they said that I am not allowed to do that I am stupid/irrational because rebirth explain everything.

How does it look like in other places? Is it just in my environment that devas and rebirth is a MUST when you are practicing buddhism?

As Dhammarakkhito said, some great answers so far but I would like look at your question in another way. It seems to me that you might like to look at a ... movement? sub-sect? ... known as "skeptical Buddhism". If you Google that phrase you will get lots of results and http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/14938 ... and-is-not may be among the first. It was for me, anyway, and seems to be a pretty good introduction to the main ideas.
The really short version is that skeptical Buddhists reject most of what they see as the "superstitious" or "Irrational" aspects of Buddhism, in favour of a bare-bones rationalist version. Mainstream Buddhists, of course, say, "You can't do that! You're leaving out so much important stuff that it's not really Buddhism any more."
Me? I sit in the middle and say they are both partly right.


Kim

[Grigoris]

Well, the Buddha quite clearly teaches rebirth and the existence of Deva, so I don't know how somebody could be a Buddhist if they do not accept these. Rebirth plays a central role in the teachings on kamma. If one denies rebirth, one is essentially a nihilist, as they are basically saying that suffering ends with death and that there is no kamma vipakka outside of the results one experiences in this life. That puts one directly at odds with the Buddha's teachings.

[Dhammarakkhito]

right view causes skillful behavior; wrong view causes unskillful behavior. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
that sutta has been compared to pascal's wager but it doesn't just ask you to rely on the promise of an afterlife, you can observe kamma operating here and now and later in this life
an agnostic is more suited for this dhamma than an atheist because they have open their mind, they havent stated something as categorically impossible, except perhaps knowledge/truth itself. http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... ev_1.0.pdf
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Sam Vara]

an agnostic is more suited for this dhamma than an atheist because they have open their mind, they havent stated something as categorically impossible,

That's a good point. There is a type of militant atheist who falls prey to a type of sterile scientism.

[2600htz]

Hello:

Your question is about "faith and buddhism".
As you see, the Buddha didn´t praise blind absolute faith (only this is true).
The concept of faith in buddhism its more like a "conviction" in order to "give ear" (like the one you see in the elephant footprint discourse),
where a person after thinking "ok, i don´t see any fault in the way the buddha acts, i don´t see any fault in the way he teaches, etc)
so i will give him a chance and practice what he is saying, until i can really tell by myself if this is true or not".

AN 3.65 (Advice to the Kalamas)

"Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These mental qualities are skillful; these mental qualities are blameless; these mental qualities are praised by the wise; these mental qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."

MN 96 (With Canki)

There are five ideas that ripen here and now in two ways. What five? Faith, preference, hearsay-learning, arguing upon evidence, and liking through pondering a view. Now something may have faith well placed in it and yet be hollow, empty, and false; and again something may have no faith placed in it and yet be factual, true, and no other than it seems; and so with preference and the rest. If a man has faith, then he guards truth when he says, "My faith is thus," but on that account draws no unreserved conclusion, "Only this is true, the other is wrong." In this way he guards the truth; but there is as yet no discovery of truth. And so with preference and the rest.

SN 10.12 (Discourse to Alavaka)

The mindful and discerning one,
Who in the Dhamma plead his faith;
By his will to hear that Dhamma
Wins the wisdom of Nibbana.

MN 27 (The Shorter Elephant Footprint Simile)

"Seeing what reasons does Master Vacchayana have such high confidence in Gotama the contemplative?"

"Sir, suppose an elephant hunter were to enter an elephant forest and were to see there a large elephant footprint, long in extent and broad in width. He would come to the conclusion, 'What a big bull elephant!' In the same way, when I saw four footprints in Gotama the contemplative, I came to the conclusion, 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.' Which four?...

Regards