The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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Polar Bear
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The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by Polar Bear »

A new article by Bhikkhu Anālayo from the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies’ Insight Journal just came out titled The Challenge of Pain. It’s a great short article on unpleasant feelings and challenges the idea that grief from a longing for liberation is unskillful. Check out the article here and let me know what you think. I’ll paste the article below as well but it’ll probably be more pleasant to read in its original format. For a PDF version click here.
Wishing for Liberation

For an appreciation of the challenge posed by painful feelings, the Shorter Discourse with Questions and Answers, the Cūḷavedalla-sutta (MN 44), offers helpful indications. In this discourse, the arahant bhikkhunī Dhammadinnā explains that the experience of pain tends to trigger the underlying tendency to aversion. This much is fairly obvious and I will explore in more detail below how to handle this tendency.

Before coming to that topic, however, I briefly turn to her clarification that not all painful feelings are related to the underlying tendency to aversion. By way of illustration, she offers the following description:

Here, friend Visākha, a monastic reflects like this: When will it be that I will dwell having attained that experience (āyatana), the experience which noble ones at present dwell having attained? By arousing longing like this for the supreme liberation, unpleasant mental feeling arises conditioned by the longing. By that, one abandons aversion and the underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie that.

The same description recurs in the Discourse on an Analysis of the Sense-spheres, the Saḷāyatanavibhaṅga-sutta (MN 137), to illustrate unpleasant mental feeling that is based on renunciation (nekkhamma).

The Cūḷavedalla-sutta passage does not imply that longing for liberation in itself removes the tendency to aversion. But such longing serves as a motivation to dedicate oneself to progress on the path to the final goal, the reaching of which will then result in the removal of the underlying tendencies.

The presentation in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta is remarkable insofar as it forms a contrast to a fairly common opinion among some meditation practitioners and teachers that one should not generate longing, even for liberation. From that perspective, to have a wish like the one described in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta would not be commendable and at times might even be considered an expression of greed.

From the viewpoint of the early discourses, this is clearly not the case. Just as not all pleasant feelings need to be shunned, so also not all unpleasant feelings are to be avoided. Some unpleasant mental feelings, such as those mentioned in the passage translated above, can be supportive of progress to the final goal and are for this reason commendable.

This in turn reflects a general position taken in the early discourses, according to which not all forms of desire are seen as problematic. Instead of dismissing desire as such, the question rather becomes: What effect does this particular form of desire have? Does it lead us forward on the path to liberation or not?

Needless to say, even with appropriate forms of desire we need to remain balanced. Just yearning for liberation and berating ourselves for not having reached the final goal will not do. But a clear aspiration and a keen wish to become liberated are commendable, even if at times these result in unpleasant feelings.

Besides the example given in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta, the same basic principle could also be applied to the type of unpleasant feelings experienced whenever we fail to live up to our own standards. It is quite important that in such a situation we do not avoid such unpleasant feelings by pretending to ourselves that nothing really happened or that what we did wrong does not matter so much.

For genuine progress it is of crucial importance that we honestly recognize our own shortcomings (and, equally, our own virtues). Such recognition will inevitably trigger the unpleasant feelings of cognitive dissonance. Yet, the mental discomfort due to witnessing the contrast between how we would like to be and how we really are forms the very foundation of genuine progress.

Building on this foundation of genuine acknowledgement, we can indeed gradually learn to live up to our own ideals. Without honest recognition, however, it will not be possible to adopt the appropriate measures in order to counter and eventually remove defilements. This is where the unpleasant mental feeling of renunciation, understood in a broader sense, falls into place.

The Dart of Pain

Apart from such commendable forms of unpleasant feelings, however, other types of grief and sorrow do trigger the underlying tendency to aversion. This is particularly evident in the case of physical pain.

In the Discourse on the Dart, the Salla-sutta (SN 36.6), the predicament of someone with an untrained mind who is afflicted by pain is illustrated by the example of being struck at by two darts:

Being touched by painful feeling an ignorant worldling sorrows, becomes miserable, is aggrieved, wails beating the breast, and becomes bewildered; [the worldling] feels two [types] of feeling; bodily and mental. On being touched by that painful feeling, [the worldling] becomes aversive towards it.

The simile of the two darts illustrates the two types of feeling, where the first dart of physical pain leads on to the second dart of the painful feelings caused by our mental reaction to the pain.

This is not yet the end of the story. The Salla-sutta continues by depicting further repercussions of not knowing how to face the challenge of pain appropriately:

Being touched by painful feeling, [the worldling] delights in the pleasure of sensuality. Why is that? Monastics, the ignorant worldling does not know an escape from painful feeling other than the pleasure of sensuality.

Being confronted by pain, the response of the untrained mind is to want to get away from it as soon as possible. Sensual indulgence appears to be the only option to be able to escape from the pain.

The situation differs substantially for one who has trained the mind. In such a case, the dart of physical pain need not lead on to the additional dart of mental sorrow. As expressed succinctly in advice given by the Buddha to an elderly lay disciple in a discourse from the Saṃyutta-nikāya (SN 22.1):

Therefore, householder, you should train yourself like this: ‘[Though] my body is afflicted, my mind will not be afflicted.’

This brief instruction contains in a nutshell the solution to the challenge of pain. If the mind does not become afflicted by sorrowing and becoming miserable, the second dart can be avoided.

The Salla-sutta explains that when we experience only the bodily feeling of pain but not the mental one, not only is there no aversion, but also the automatic response of searching for sensual pleasure does not get triggered. The reason is that we know an alternative to handling painful feeling other than sensual indulgence. This alternative is to face the challenge of pain with a balanced mind, rather than react to it with aversion.

Mindfulness and Pain

The ability to face the challenge of pain with mindfulness has in recent times proven its worth in the clinical setting. Jon Kabat-Zinn explains:

Pain is a natural part of the experience of life. Suffering is one of many possible responses to pain … it is not always the pain per se but the way we see it and react to it that determines the degree of suffering we will experience. And it is the suffering that we fear most, not the pain …

Several classic laboratory experiments with acute pain showed that tuning in to sensations is a more effective way of reducing the level of pain experienced when the pain is intense and prolonged than is distracting yourself … the sensory, the emotional, and the cognitive/conceptual dimensions of the pain experience can be uncoupled from one another, meaning that they can be held in awareness as independent aspects of experience … this phenomenon of uncoupling can give us new degrees of freedom in resting in awareness and holding whatever arises in any or all of these three domains in an entirely different way, and dramatically reduce the suffering experienced.

During the Vedanā Symposium held at BCBS, Sara Lazar presented some neuroimaging work concretely demonstrating this phenomenon of uncoupling.

The brain has one network that evaluates the sensation of pain (intensity, throbbing, tingling, aching, etc.) and a separate network associated with the thoughts and emotions about the pain.

When long term meditators were exposed to a hot, painful disk on their arm, activity in the sensation-related network increased while activity in the emotion-related network decreased.

This was the exact opposite of the pattern observed in control subjects with no meditation experience. In fact, even though these subjects tried to shut down the pain by controlling it, afterwards they reported their experience in distinctly more unpleasant terms compared to how the meditation subjects described their experience.

This potential of mindfulness to lead indeed to an uncoupling of the sensory experience of pain from emotional reactivity holds for a range of different symptoms. According to a recent survey of relevant research by Fadel Zeidan and David R. Vago:

Mindfulness meditation-based interventions improve pain symptomology across a wide spectrum of pain-related disorders, including fibromyalgia, migraine, chronic pelvic pain, irritable bowel syndrome, and other conditions …
Across almost all mindfulness/pain-focused experiments, the unpleasantness dimension of pain was significantly more attenuated with respect to pain intensity.

The potential of mindfulness in this respect is truly remarkable and fully in line with what discourses like the Salla-sutta suggest.

A key aspect here seems to be the ability to use mindfulness to remain receptive and open to what happens without immediately reacting. This helps diminish and eventually completely avoid the second dart of mental pain.

Painful Feeling and Satipaṭṭhāna

The impressive ability to avoid the second dart of mental grief does not yet exhaust the potential of mindfulness in relation to painful feelings. Sustained practice of the second satipaṭṭhāna, contemplation of the three types of feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral), reveals the surprising degree to which it is natural for the body to give rise to pain.

This is a crucial insight, since the second dart takes a considerable part of its impact from the tacit assumption that we are somehow entitled to be free from pain. Therefore, pain should not happen. When it does manifest, this feels almost unfair: Why me? What have I done to deserve this pain?

The Challenge of Pain

Yet closer inspection shows that the body is a constant source of pain. As we sit in meditation, sooner or later bodily pain forces us to change posture. Even the posture of lying down cannot be maintained for long periods without eventually giving rise to pain and the need to turn over and change the body’s position.

Aside from the pain that arises when the body is motionless in any posture, there is the irritation caused by the outside temperature. Now it is too hot, soon enough it is too cold. We are forced to adjust clothing or turn on a fan or the heating in order to prevent painful feelings due to the temperature.

Another dimension of the same predicament is the need for food and drink. So much of our attention, time, and resources are spent catering to what we would like to eat and drink. Not only catering to our own preferences, but also creating and strengthening such desires in others receives a great deal of attention and publicity. But the truth of the matter is that, in order to avoid the pain of hunger and thirst, we must eat and we must drink.

When that pain has successfully been addressed, at least for a short while, the inevitable result is the need to defecate and urinate. Failing to obey the calls of nature in time will become yet another source of pain. In a way, the restaurant and the restroom are equally facilities for pain relief.

Taking a deep breath feels so pleasant. This is simply because for a moment the body’s constant demand for oxygen has been satisfied. We must breathe to avoid the pain caused by a lack of oxygen supply.

As a practical exploration, we might keep mind- fully track of the amount of time and activity spent throughout the day just for the sake of maintaining the body in a less-than-painful condition. How much time and effort do we spend sleeping, eating, drinking, dressing, washing, and so on?

The resultant insight can be rather sobering. It not only puts into perspective the pursuit of sensual pleasure, it also prepares us well for the time when the first dart manifests strongly. Recognizing that, sooner or later, it is only natural for the body to give rise to discomfort can help us to remain balanced when confronted with the challenge of pain. We learn to face pain with equipoise, in line with the instruction quoted above:

[Though] my body is afflicted, my mind will not be afflicted.
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by Sam Vara »

Many thanks, PB. That is indeed a great article. I've bookmarked it and will return to it later.

I especially liked the last section: the idea that the body is a near-constant and unavoidable source of pain.
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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Polar Bear wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 8:49 pmThe Cūḷavedalla-sutta passage does not imply that longing for liberation in itself removes the tendency to aversion. But such longing serves as a motivation to dedicate oneself to progress on the path to the final goal, the reaching of which will then result in the removal of the underlying tendencies.

The presentation in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta is remarkable insofar as it forms a contrast to a fairly common opinion among some meditation practitioners and teachers that one should not generate longing, even for liberation. From that perspective, to have a wish like the one described in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta would not be commendable and at times might even be considered an expression of greed.
My impression is the above view is questionable because the Cūḷavedalla-Sutta is not referring to an overt longing (tanha or upakkilesa) but to an underlying tendency (anusaya) that often exists beyond the scope of awareness & volition. Thus, when meditation teachers & practitioners (such as Ajahn Chah or Ajahn Brahm) say that one should not generate longing, even for liberation, this is basically correct in respect to the longing that the mind can volitionally & consciously control & abandon. But when the mind is in that powerful stream culminating in jhana (which is what the Cūḷavedalla-Sutta is about), it does not have the conscious capacity to abandon the underlying momentum & chandha (zeal) naturally manifesting in that development. I recall Ajahn Brahm made a concession (somewhere) in respect to MN 111 because Ajahn Brahm teaches to abandon intention & longing yet MN 111 refers to "intention" in each jhana, as follows:
Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, Sariputta entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Whatever qualities there are in the second jhana — internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, zeal, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after.

MN 111
This "intention" above in MN 111 appears to be the mind willingly accepting the developments of jhana (rather than rejecting or abandoning them). In acccordance with the style of Ajahn Brahm, this "intention" is obviously not any type of overt thinking or overt willfulness (forcefulness) given this intention is mentioned in every jhana up to the 7th jhana. My point here is Bhikkhu Anālayo appears to be citing a very subtle teaching from the Cūḷavedalla-Sutta that pertains to jhanas and applying it to very coarse situations of basic meditation; which sounds questionable to me.
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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'longing for liberation'

"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then he eventually abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 10:30 pm 'longing for liberation'

"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then he eventually abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The above quote is attributed to Ananda & has no support in the reported words of the Buddha. However, the above quote is a fitting example of the distinction I made in my previous post. The above quote attributed to Ananda is about overt craving (tanha); where as the subject of Ven. Anālayo from MN 44 is "underlying tendency" (anusaya). Yet Ven. Anālayo appears to wrongly assert similar synonymity between "craving" & "underlying tendency" as our friend & newbie Dhammarakkhito.

:smile:
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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DooDoot wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 11:05 pm The above quote attributed to Ananda is about overt craving (tanha); where as the subject of Ven. Anālayo from MN 44 is "underlying tendency" (anusaya). Yet Ven. Anālayo appears to wrongly assert similar synonymity between "craving" & "underlying tendency" as our friend & newbie Dhammarakkhito.

:smile:
It sounds like you didn’t read the article carefully. It isn’t the underlying tendency that we use, but the longing for liberation and associated mental unpleasantness that occurs for one who is unawakened but striving for it. When we are under the influence of the sadness of renunciation, the underlying tendency to aversion is not active. This also is not some subtle jhana thing but an explicit grief/unpleasantness arising from reflection and insight into impermanence:
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic reflects like this: When will it be that I will dwell having attained that experience (āyatana), the experience which noble ones at present dwell having attained? By arousing longing like this for the supreme liberation, unpleasant mental feeling arises conditioned by the longing. By that, one abandons aversion and the underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie that.
And in this context what are the six kinds of renunciate sadness? When you’ve understood the impermanence of sights—their perishing, fading away, and cessation—you truly understand through right understanding that both formerly and now all those sights are impermanent, suffering, and perishable. Upon seeing this, you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations: ‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’ When you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations like this, sadness arises because of the yearning. Such sadness is called renunciate sadness. When you’ve understood the impermanence of sounds … smells … tastes … touches … thoughts—their perishing, fading away, and cessation—you truly understand through right understanding that both formerly and now all those thoughts are impermanent, suffering, and perishable. Upon seeing this, you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations: ‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’ When you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations like this, sadness arises because of the yearning. Such sadness is called renunciate sadness. These are the six kinds of renunciate sadness...

Therein, by relying on the six kinds of renunciate sadness, give up the six kinds of lay sadness. That’s how they are given up.


https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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Polar Bear wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 12:15 amIt sounds like you didn’t read the article carefully. It isn’t the underlying tendency that we use, but the longing for liberation and associated mental unpleasantness that occurs for one who is unawakened but striving for it.
All I know is whatever Ven. Anālayo writes is bound to be prone to questioning. The fact that Anālayo correlates the "sadness of renunciation" with the physical pain in SN 22.1 immediately raises a red flag.

I will respond later to MN 44, given I am not satisfied with the translations of the sutta. VBB's translation has non-literal footnotes for each matter thus the reading is obviously far from literal. Since only an arahant has uprooted the 6th fetter of lust for jhana; the literal translation of MN 44 that a meditator in the 1st jhana does not have any underlying tendency to lust is questionable. Meditators can have delight in/for the 1st jhana (eg. in AN 4.123), which is lust for jhana.

As for your statement: "the longing for liberation and associated mental unpleasantness that occurs for one who is unawakened but striving for it"; the quote below from MN 137 (which may not be related to MN 44) obviously refers to at least a stream-enterer rather than what you appear to be implying about the average run-of-the-mill meditator or any person struggling with physical pain, such as in SN 22.1:
And in this context what are the six kinds of renunciate sadness? When you’ve understood the impermanence of sights—their perishing, fading away, and cessation—you truly understand through right understanding that both formerly and now all those sights are impermanent, suffering, and perishable. Upon seeing this, you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations: ‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’ When you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations like this, sadness arises because of the yearning. Such sadness is called renunciate sadness. When you’ve understood the impermanence of sounds … smells … tastes … touches … thoughts—their perishing, fading away, and cessation—you truly understand through right understanding that both formerly and now all those thoughts are impermanent, suffering, and perishable. Upon seeing this, you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations: ‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’ When you give rise to yearning for the supreme liberations like this, sadness arises because of the yearning. Such sadness is called renunciate sadness. These are the six kinds of renunciate sadness...

Therein, by relying on the six kinds of renunciate sadness, give up the six kinds of lay sadness. That’s how they are given up.

https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato
:alien:
Polar Bear wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 12:15 amIt sounds like you didn’t read the article carefully. It isn’t the underlying tendency that we use, but the longing for liberation and associated mental unpleasantness that occurs for one who is unawakened but striving for it.
Yes. I do have a tendency to not read things carefully that are immediately contextually suspect. For me, any teacher that encourages overt longing in meditation is engaged in a profound & fatal error of understanding. This said, according to my suspicions about MN 44, I was referring to the underlying tendency to lust (rather than to the underlying tendency to aversion) in my post.

Regardless, this does not change the essence of my post because the "longing" described in MN 44 and MN 137 would be, again, a longing that is extremely subtle; the same level of subtlety as the intention & zeal mentioned in the jhanas in MN 111. When the stream-enterer has understood the impermanence of sights, sounds, smells, etc, —their perishing, fading away and cessation - the "longing" that arises would be something subtle, almost automatic or intuitive; similar to the muncitu-kamyata-ñana mentioned in later teachings.
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by DooDoot »

Wishing for Liberation

For an appreciation of the challenge posed by painful feelings, the Shorter Discourse with Questions and Answers, the Cūḷavedalla-sutta (MN 44), offers helpful indications. In this discourse, the arahant bhikkhunī Dhammadinnā explains that the experience of pain tends to trigger the underlying tendency to aversion. This much is fairly obvious and I will explore in more detail below how to handle this tendency.
The correlation here between a "challenge of pain" and the Cūḷavedalla-sutta appears wrong. The Cūḷavedalla-sutta is referring to a sadness arising from deep insight where as the challenge of pain can be extremely mundane.
Before coming to that topic, however, I briefly turn to her clarification that not all painful feelings are related to the underlying tendency to aversion.
If any painful feelings are not related to the underlying tendency to aversion then these painful feelings are not a "challenge". Again, Anālayo is making illogical correlations and statements.
By way of illustration, she offers the following description:

Here, friend Visākha, a monastic reflects like this: When will it be that I will dwell having attained that experience (āyatana), the experience which noble ones at present dwell having attained? By arousing longing like this for the supreme liberation, unpleasant mental feeling arises conditioned by the longing. By that, one abandons aversion and the underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie that.
The above verse is found in MN 44 between two similar examples pertaining to jhana therefore it would appear there is a subtly occurring above. In other words, not what are ordinarily regarded as "challenging feelings".
The same description recurs in the Discourse on an Analysis of the Sense-spheres, the Saḷāyatanavibhaṅga-sutta (MN 137), to illustrate unpleasant mental feeling that is based on renunciation (nekkhamma).
The sadness mentioned in MN 137 arises from strong vipassana, apparently on the level of stream-entry. For a stream-enterer, according to SN 13.1, there are not too many "challenges". Again, MN 137 appears unrelated to any "challenges" of pain.
The Cūḷavedalla-sutta passage does not imply that longing for liberation in itself removes the tendency to aversion. But such longing serves as a motivation to dedicate oneself to progress on the path to the final goal, the reaching of which will then result in the removal of the underlying tendencies.
Possibly but the path at this stage is obviously quite advanced.
The presentation in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta is remarkable insofar as it forms a contrast to a fairly common opinion among some meditation practitioners and teachers that one should not generate longing, even for liberation.
No. The presentation in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta is remarkable insofar as it applies to advanced stages of meditation therefore it has no relationship to instructions given by meditation practitioners and teachers to new students. Since the Cūḷavedalla-sutta refers to the abandoning & even not existence of underlying tendencies; the level of attainment here appears quite advanced. It appears Ven. Anālayo is misapplying the Cūḷavedalla-sutta contextually, which is likely to confuse new students.
From that perspective, to have a wish like the one described in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta would not be commendable and at times might even be considered an expression of greed.
Indeed, as taught by teachers such as Ajahn Chah & Ajahn Brahm but discouraged by Anālayo.
From the viewpoint of the early discourses, this is clearly not the case.
This is not true. :| The viewpoint here Anālayo is relying on comes from two discourses that Anālayo appears to be misinterpreting contextually. There are many discourses, most notably SN 48.9 & 10 and MN 118 (final paragraphs) that states the path is attained when the path factors mature in vossagga (abandonment, giving up, surrender).

:meditate: :namaste:
Just as not all pleasant feelings need to be shunned, so also not all unpleasant feelings are to be avoided.
This is irrelevant because severe painful feelings cannot be avoided.
Some unpleasant mental feelings, such as those mentioned in the passage translated above, can be supportive of progress to the final goal and are for this reason commendable.
No. Only one non-pleasant feeling, which is not exactly "painful", is said to help progress on the path.
This in turn reflects a general position taken in the early discourses, according to which not all forms of desire are seen as problematic. Instead of dismissing desire as such, the question rather becomes: What effect does this particular form of desire have? Does it lead us forward on the path to liberation or not?
Possibly but this is not related to the "challenge of pain", for which craving must be abandoned.
Besides the example given in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta, the same basic principle could also be applied to the type of unpleasant feelings experienced whenever we fail to live up to our own standards. It is quite important that in such a situation we do not avoid such unpleasant feelings by pretending to ourselves that nothing really happened or that what we did wrong does not matter so much.

For genuine progress it is of crucial importance that we honestly recognize our own shortcomings (and, equally, our own virtues). Such recognition will inevitably trigger the unpleasant feelings of cognitive dissonance. Yet, the mental discomfort due to witnessing the contrast between how we would like to be and how we really are forms the very foundation of genuine progress.
The above "psychotherapy for lay people" is not related to the profundity of the teaching in MN 44 & MN 137, which, as said, obviously applies to at least stream-enterers.
Building on this foundation of genuine acknowledgement, we can indeed gradually learn to live up to our own ideals. Without honest recognition, however, it will not be possible to adopt the appropriate measures in order to counter and eventually remove defilements. This is where the unpleasant mental feeling of renunciation, understood in a broader sense, falls into place.
Sounding like Jack Kornfield again.
The Dart of Pain

Apart from such commendable forms of unpleasant feelings, however, other types of grief and sorrow do trigger the underlying tendency to aversion. This is particularly evident in the case of physical pain.
Indeed.
In the Discourse on the Dart, the Salla-sutta (SN 36.6), the predicament of someone with an untrained mind who is afflicted by pain is illustrated by the example of being struck at by two darts:
Indeed.
This is not yet the end of the story. The Salla-sutta continues by depicting further repercussions of not knowing how to face the challenge of pain appropriately:
Indeed.
Being confronted by pain, the response of the untrained mind is to want to get away from it as soon as possible. Sensual indulgence appears to be the only option to be able to escape from the pain.
Indeed.
The situation differs substantially for one who has trained the mind. In such a case, the dart of physical pain need not lead on to the additional dart of mental sorrow. As expressed succinctly in advice given by the Buddha to an elderly lay disciple in a discourse from the Saṃyutta-nikāya (SN 22.1):
Indeed. SN 22.1 refers to the mind trained to give up "I-making" & "my-making".
This brief instruction contains in a nutshell the solution to the challenge of pain. If the mind does not become afflicted by sorrowing and becoming miserable, the second dart can be avoided.
Yes, and so?
The Salla-sutta explains that when we experience only the bodily feeling of pain but not the mental one, not only is there no aversion, but also the automatic response of searching for sensual pleasure does not get triggered. The reason is that we know an alternative to handling painful feeling other than sensual indulgence. This alternative is to face the challenge of pain with a balanced mind, rather than react to it with aversion.
And?
The ability to face the challenge of pain with mindfulness has in recent times proven its worth in the clinical setting. Jon Kabat-Zinn explains:

Pain is a natural part of the experience of life. Suffering is one of many possible responses to pain … it is not always the pain per se but the way we see it and react to it that determines the degree of suffering we will experience. And it is the suffering that we fear most, not the pain …

Several classic laboratory experiments with acute pain showed that tuning in to sensations is a more effective way of reducing the level of pain experienced when the pain is intense and prolonged than is distracting yourself … the sensory, the emotional, and the cognitive/conceptual dimensions of the pain experience can be uncoupled from one another, meaning that they can be held in awareness as independent aspects of experience … this phenomenon of uncoupling can give us new degrees of freedom in resting in awareness and holding whatever arises in any or all of these three domains in an entirely different way, and dramatically reduce the suffering experienced.
So what is novel above? That has not been explained before?
During the Vedanā Symposium held at BCBS, Sara Lazar presented some neuroimaging work concretely demonstrating this phenomenon of uncoupling.
Uncoupling. And?
This potential of mindfulness to lead indeed to an uncoupling of the sensory experience of pain from emotional reactivity holds for a range of different symptoms. According to a recent survey of relevant research by Fadel Zeidan and David R. Vago:
And?
The potential of mindfulness in this respect is truly remarkable and fully in line with what discourses like the Salla-sutta suggest.
Yes but not the Cūḷavedalla-sutta.
A key aspect here seems to be the ability to use mindfulness to remain receptive and open to what happens without immediately reacting. This helps diminish and eventually completely avoid the second dart of mental pain.
And?
The Challenge of Pain

Yet closer inspection shows that the body is a constant source of pain. As we sit in meditation, sooner or later bodily pain forces us to change posture. Even the posture of lying down cannot be maintained for long periods without eventually giving rise to pain and the need to turn over and change the body’s position.
So?
The resultant insight can be rather sobering. It not only puts into perspective the pursuit of sensual pleasure, it also prepares us well for the time when the first dart manifests strongly. Recognizing that, sooner or later, it is only natural for the body to give rise to discomfort can help us to remain balanced when confronted with the challenge of pain. We learn to face pain with equipoise, in line with the instruction quoted above:

[Though] my body is afflicted, my mind will not be afflicted.
OK. I read the article carefully. I found the beginning contextually incorrect and the remainder a very standard teaching given countless times by countless teachers. The fact that Ven. Anālayo relied on American McMindfulness lay teachers showed the contextual "decoupling" ;) from the Arahant Bhikkhuni Dhammadinna in the Cūḷavedalla-sutta.

:anjali: :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 02, 2018 3:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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"Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10]

"Now, monks, there hasn't been that conviction, there hasn't been that visiting, there hasn't been that growing close ... that lending ear ... that hearing of the Dhamma ... that remembering ... that penetration of the meaning of the teachings ... that agreement through pondering the teachings ... that desire ... that willingness ... that contemplation ... that exertion. You have lost the way, monks. You have gone the wrong way, monks. How far have you strayed, foolish men, from this Dhamma & Discipline!

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fn-10
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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Dhammarakkhito wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 3:25 am that desire ...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fn-10
The Pali here appears to be chanda, which is the 1st Iddhipada. For example, the enthusiasm, zeal & devotion (chanda) to give up desire is chanda.
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

:goodpost:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by Polar Bear »

DooDoot wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 5:56 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 3:25 am that desire ...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fn-10
The Pali here appears to be chanda, which is the 1st Iddhipada. For example, the enthusiasm, zeal & devotion (chanda) to give up desire is chanda.
Yes, Chanda is also a part of the first of the five hindrances- Kāmacchando

Also, it is the desire to be given up in regard to all experiences-
Ekamantaṃ … pe … vihareyyanti. “Yo kho, koṭṭhika, anattā tatra te chando pahātabbo. Ko ca, koṭṭhika, anattā? Cakkhu kho, koṭṭhika, anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Rūpā anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Cakkhusamphasso anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Yampidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tampi anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo … pe … jivhā anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo … pe … mano anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Dhammā anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Manoviññāṇaṃ … manosamphasso … yampidaṃ manosamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tampi anattā; tatra te chando pahātabbo. Yo kho, koṭṭhika, anattā, tatra te chando pahātabbo”ti.
“Koṭṭhita, you should give up desire for what is not-self. And what is not-self? The eye, sights, eye consciousness, and eye contact are not-self: you should give up desire for them. The pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by eye contact is also not-self: You should give up desire for it. The ear … nose … tongue … body … The mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and mind contact … The pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by mind contact is also not-self: you should give up desire for it. Koṭṭhita, you should give up desire for what is not-self.”
So it’s a broad word, like one of the words that translates it, i.e. desire. It can be good when directed towards cultivating the path, but otherwise is bad.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by DooDoot »

Polar Bear wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 6:10 amYes, Chanda is also a part of the first of the five hindrances- Kāmacchando
Two kinds of chanda; wholesome & unwholesome, such as the supramundane chanda in the following passage:
In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

MN 118
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

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Polar Bear wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 8:49 pmA new article by Bhikkhu Anālayo from the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies’ Insight Journal just came out titled The Challenge of Pain.
I have no idea what he's trying to say.

He recommends asking, for example:
What effect does this particular form of desire have? Does it lead us forward on the path to liberation or not?
Someone who is not yet at least a stream enterer cannot meaningfully answer the second question. One can, of course, construct a reply based on what one has read in the teachings, but that's it.
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Re: The Challenge of Pain - by Ven. Anālayo

Post by Saengnapha »

binocular wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 7:32 am
Polar Bear wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 8:49 pmA new article by Bhikkhu Anālayo from the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies’ Insight Journal just came out titled The Challenge of Pain.
I have no idea what he's trying to say.

He recommends asking, for example:
What effect does this particular form of desire have? Does it lead us forward on the path to liberation or not?
Someone who is not yet at least a stream enterer cannot meaningfully answer the second question. One can, of course, construct a reply based on what one has read in the teachings, but that's it.
An intellectual posing as a monk. :D
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