duality and non-duality in theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:31 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:23 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:35 am
I'm not sure. Could you support this assertion with some examples from other Buddhist schools?
ALL Buddhist traditions take anatta/anatman as a given. It is not worth debating this point. To even think that Buddhists traditions, other than Theravada, do not have the Three Dharma Seals as their basis is just sectarian delusion.
Hmm. You're assuming that absence of self-view = anatta/sunyata, or that absence of self-view is central to all Buddhist schools. I'm not sure that's the case.

Maybe you could suggest some specific teachings on absence of self-view in other Buddhist schools?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Grigoris
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:00 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:31 am
Hmm. You're assuming that absence of self-view = anatta/sunyata, or that absence of self-view is central to all Buddhist schools. I'm not sure that's the case.
And what is the basis for your doubt? Even the minority Shentong view, on examination, does not propose an Atman.
Maybe you could suggest some specific teachings on absence of self-view in other Buddhist schools?
Every Buddhist teaching is predicated on anatta, dukkha and annica. You are asking me to give you an example of water that is wet.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

auto
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by auto » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:31 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
3. "Venerable sir, there are these various views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines or world-doctrines.[2] Does the abandoning and discarding of such views come about in a monk who is only at the beginning of his [meditative] reflections?"[3]

"Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[4] these views arise, in which they underlie and become active,[5] is seen with right wisdom[6] as it actually is,[7] thus: 'This is not mine,[8] this I am not,[9] this is not my self'[10] — then the abandoning of these views, their discarding,[11] takes place in him [who thus sees].
Object gives rise to self view. That object is not you. And the self view is abandoned in who sees the object.

I assume:
Atman is not a self view or the object what gives rise to a self view. Atman is the self what abides in every living being.

cookiemonster
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by cookiemonster » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:19 pm

dudette wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:22 am
None of the introductionS to theravada buddhism mention anything about "experiencing non-duality".
However, Some buddhists say that they meditate in order to experience non-duality, and it is an important part of buddhism and path to enlightenment.
How important is experiencing non-duality in theravada buddhism? Is it a necessity in theravada and path to enlightenment?
IMO duality and/or non-duality are concepts on the conceptual level of existence, and neither are end-goals of Theravada. In practice however, there is duality in samsara, and that duality is integral to the practice of the Eightfold Path (cf "Contemplation of Dualities, Sn 3.12) in order to reach Awakening/Nibbana (- not non-duality). "Non-duality" is still a form of attachment to the conceptual level of existence.

It's like watching figures of people on a television screen (made of individual LED lights); duality exists on that level, because the LED lights can be on or off (the conceptual level), people appear separate from other people, etc. Instead of contemplating the screen or its individual lights, we can observe that the screen and its conceptual contents can be viewed in terms of its fundamental quantum particles (akin to the Buddha who points out that we should focus our attention away from the conceptual level to the phenomenological level). When our attention is redirected towards that quantum level, the duality nor non-duality of those LED lights on the conceptual level becomes no longer relevant to the discussion.

Dinsdale
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:45 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:00 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:31 am
Hmm. You're assuming that absence of self-view = anatta/sunyata, or that absence of self-view is central to all Buddhist schools. I'm not sure that's the case.
And what is the basis for your doubt? Even the minority Shentong view, on examination, does not propose an Atman.
Maybe you could suggest some specific teachings on absence of self-view in other Buddhist schools?
Every Buddhist teaching is predicated on anatta, dukkha and annica. You are asking me to give you an example of water that is wet.
You're not listening. I am questioning the assumption that absence of self-view is identical with anatta.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:47 am

auto wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:31 pm
I assume:
Atman is not a self view or the object what gives rise to a self view. Atman is the self what abides in every living being.
Indeed. Part of the problem in discussions like this is a lack of consensus and clarity on what exactly anatta is negating.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

auto
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by auto » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:01 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:47 am
auto wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:31 pm
I assume:
Atman is not a self view or the object what gives rise to a self view. Atman is the self what abides in every living being.
Indeed. Part of the problem in discussions like this is a lack of consensus and clarity on what exactly anatta is negating.
There is no-self or no soul who interacts is an Indian teacher Pakudha Kaccayana wrong view,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'And among them there is no killer nor one who causes killing, no hearer nor one who causes hearing, no cognizer nor one who causes cognition. When one cuts off [another person's] head, there is no one taking anyone's life. It is simply between the seven substances that the sword passes.'
I think its common to read fetters model and try to claim stream entry and people experimentally somehow convince that there is no-self. And add here view that there weren't self to even begin with.

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Grigoris
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:18 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:45 am
You're not listening. I am questioning the assumption that absence of self-view is identical with anatta.
Why? What are you proposing? Absence of self view is one thing and anatta is another?

If so: what, according to your view, is the difference?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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