Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:23 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:01 pm
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
How to read it:

Here, [cravings for] long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form -
are all brought to an end.
This has not been stated. It is not very logical, how can Contact upon which the delineation of Consciousness depends occur without Four Primary Elements having a footing? I do not understand why the need of bending over backwards when there exists a perfectly reasonable simple explaination.

Furthermore the way you read it raises several questions;

1) Why is it "without feature or signless".
Given that contact at a Sense Base has three constitutes, why exactly was this stated about Vinnana Anidassanam?

2) Why is it called "endless", "limitless" or "boundless"
Given that Consciousness of Aggregates is impermanent, this seems very important and demands an explaination.

3) Why is it refered to as a "place" much like a dimension? Note the question "Where?" and the answer "Here"

4) If it is to be read as you suggest, why has it not been stated?

5) The last part of cessation of concsiousness needs explaination.
How do you explain that with the cessation of consciousness there is consciousness?

6) Consider this;
That’s where earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.’”
Viññāṇassa nirodhena etthetaṃ uparujjhatīti.
If we add your [cravings for] it reads;
That’s where cravings for earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There the cravings for both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There the cravings for “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness cravings for all this is destroyed.’”

That would mean that as long as there is Consciousness the craving is not destroyed?
Do we have a theory of Arahants having craving until the breakup of the Aggregates now?
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:17 pm

"vinnana + without end" also narrows it down because;

Vinnana is a Sankhara but ("sankhara-vinnana" + "without and end") = impossible
Viññana Sutta: Consciousness

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Therefore ("Vinnana" + "without end") appears to mean that we are talking about about a ("Dhamma-Vinnana"+"without an end end") that would be possible. A reality that is not inconstant, not-impermanent.

Anicca implies Dukkha to the extent that inconstancy is unsatisfying and unreliable.

All formations are Inconstant
All formations are Unsatisfying
All formations are Not-Self
All formations are Dhamma
Not all Dhamma are formations

From this we can know that:

("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = impossible not possible
("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = possible not impossible

Therefore;
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta") = impossible not possible
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible not impossible

"Third Noble Truth" = ("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
"Nibbana" = ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible

Couple important Sutta that i belive to explain why Nibbana can be referred to as "Vinnana Anidassanam"
Nibbana Sutta:

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Mahavedalla Sutta:

"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
Somewhat noteworthy is that both passages are attributed to Ven. Sariputta
DhP 203
Hunger is the highest illness. Conditioned things are the highest suffering.
Having known this as it is, Nirvana is the highest happiness.
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by Zom » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am

how can Contact upon which the delineation of Consciousness depends occur without Four Primary Elements having a footing?
No footing means they don't settle inside the mind, at least, in Buddha's answer. Why? Because craving for them is no more in arahant's mind.
If we add your [cravings for] it reads;
No necessity to add it.
1) Why is it "without feature or signless".
To understand that you have to look up to simile about a picture and a painter where this word is used.
2) Why is it called "endless", "limitless" or "boundless"
Given that Consciousness of Aggregates is impermanent, this seems very important and demands an explaination.
Boundless, limitless, etc - is the feature of jhanic mind, especially arahants' mind. Same words can be met in brahmaviharas formula.

"Passion, friend, is a making of limits. Aversion is a making of limits. Delusion is a making of limits. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is immeasurable awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. (MN 43)
3) Why is it refered to as a "place" much like a dimension? Note the question "Where?" and the answer "Here"
Mind can be a place. Why not?
4) If it is to be read as you suggest, why has it not been stated?
Because this is a riddle! .)

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:22 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am
how can Contact upon which the delineation of Consciousness depends occur without Four Primary Elements having a footing?
No footing means they don't settle inside the mind, at least, in Buddha's answer. Why? Because craving for them is no more in arahant's mind.
What does "settle in the mind" mean? Do you have a reference for this?
Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am
If we add your [cravings for] it reads;
No necessity to add it.
What is that supposed to mean? You told us that we should read it with the addition. (nvm this point for now, i think i get how you would read it so we can set it aside)
Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am
3) Why is it refered to as a "place" much like a dimension? Note the question "Where?" and the answer "Here"
Mind can be a place. Why not?
If something is possible does it automatically make it true?
Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am
4) If it is to be read as you suggest, why has it not been stated?
Because this is a riddle! .)
What makes you think that it is a riddle?
Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am
2) Why is it called "endless", "limitless" or "boundless"
Given that Consciousness of Aggregates is impermanent, this seems very important and demands an explaination.
Boundless, limitless, etc - is the feature of jhanic mind, especially arahants' mind. Same words can be met in brahmaviharas formula.
"Passion, friend, is a making of limits. Aversion is a making of limits. Delusion is a making of limits. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is immeasurable awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. (MN 43)
So you think that endless is a wrong translation? Can you explain why it is wrong?
Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am
1) Why is it "without feature or signless".
To understand that you have to look up to simile about a picture and a painter where this word is used.
Well it is not that difficult to understand the painter thing as it merely refers to empty space being unsuitable medium for painting pictures.

How do you explain it in relation to the Consciousness of an Arahant tho?
Does his consciousness not cognize?

I will ask you this too;
How sure are you about your position and can you point out the flaw in my interpretation?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:39 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:38 pm
Vinnanam Anidassanam can be any kind of 6-class consciousness, which is devoid of greed, hatred, and delusion.
Sorry. But the suttas do not say this. :roll: It does not matter how many times the above is continually posted on this forum. The suttas never ever ever never define vinnanam anidassanam as consciousness devoid of greed, hatred and delusion. Vinnanam anidassanam is exclusively a teaching given to Brahmins & appears to be about stopping 'naming forms' (Brahmin nama-rupa). As a clear indisputable example, the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness (6th jhana) is never regarded as Nibbana nor as devoid of greed, hatred and delusion (refer to MN 121; MN 111; etc) yet the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness is obviously luminous.
Zom wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:38 pm
Passion, friend, is a making of limits. Aversion is a making of limits. Delusion is a making of limits. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is immeasurable awareness-release (appamāṇā cetovimuttiyo), the unprovoked awareness-release ((panākuppā cetovimutti) is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. (MN 43)
This quote has defeated your argument because the above quote refers to Sunnata (Emptiness). However the part of the quote about immeasurable awareness-release (appamāṇā cetovimuttiyo) refers to Brahma Vihara. :lol:
There is the case where a monk keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with compassion ... an awareness imbued with appreciation...

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with equanimity. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with equanimity: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

This is called the immeasurable awareness-release.

MN 43

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:12 am

My intellect almost broke trying to analyze the modified verse
Zom wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:01 pm
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
How to read it:

Here, [cravings for] long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form -
are all brought to an end.
but i think i managed to simplify it, below i offer two simplified positions

Question;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?

Answer 1)
In The Consciousness of an Arahant.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.

Answer 2)
In nibbana
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.

So basically the #1 is a roundabout way of saying that the answer to the question is Parinibbana but bending over backwards to maintain that Vinnana Anidassanam is not Nibbana.

This is done by saying that elements do not have footing in consciousness of an Arahant (which makes no sense to me [1]) stating that craving for name&form rather than the name&form itself are abscent there, then it goes on to say that with the cessation of that consciousness of an Arahant, attainment of Parinibbana, primary elements are destroyed along with name & form.

This is a dangerous view because it postulates Nibbana with Residue in the Here&Now for the Arahant as i understand it. Nibbana with residue has never been equated to any kind of Rupa Jhana or "jhanic state" in the here and now.

[1] This makes no sense because Consciousness Arises dependent on Nama&Rupa and in case of a living Arahant, walking, talking Arahant it depends on primary elements for Eye, Ear, Nose etc are derived from the primary elements and other organs are of the primary Elements. What exactly is meant by them not gaining footing in his mind is not something i can answer.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:20 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:12 am
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.
How can a destroyed consciousness be luminous all round? :shrug:
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:12 am
This makes no sense because Consciousness Arises dependent on Nama&Rupa and in case of a living Arahant, walking, talking Arahant it depends on primary elements. What exactly is meant by them not gaining footing in his mind is not something i can answer.
:goodpost:
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:20 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:12 am
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.
How can a destroyed consciousness be luminous all round? :shrug:
As i understand Zom's position The Luminous consciousness is like mundane consciousness but without delusion and this is what makes it luminous all around, like a jhanic state basically. It is not destroyed until the breakup of the body.
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Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:28 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:24 am
As i understand Zom's position The Luminous consciousness is like mundane consciousness but without delusion and this is what makes it luminous all around, like a jhanic state basically. It is not destroyed until the breakup of the body.
Luminous mind can be defiled. Luminous mind does not mean defilements have been uprooted.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:24 am
This makes no sense because Consciousness Arises dependent on Nama&Rupa and in case of a living Arahant, walking, talking Arahant it depends on primary elements. What exactly is meant by them not gaining footing in his mind is not something i can answer.
Indeed. Keep delving with the knife of wisdom (MN 23). I provided an logical answer previously but I am not aware of one Buddhist prepared to accept the term 'nama-rupa' has two meanings in the Pali suttas dependent upon context. But I am happy to go it alone, like a Rhinoceros. :mrgreen:

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:28 am
Indeed. Keep delving with the knife of wisdom (MN 23). I provided an logical answer previously but I am not aware of one Buddhist prepared to accept the term 'nama-rupa' has two meanings in the Pali suttas dependent upon context. But I am happy to go it alone, like a Rhinoceros. :mrgreen:
I've no idea what you are talking about but i edited it a bit.
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Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:52 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:42 am
I've no idea what you are talking about but i edited it a bit.
The term 'nama-rupa' comes from Brahmanism, before the Buddha. It literally means 'naming-forms'. Buddha seemed to hijack the term & redefine it as: 'feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and form composed of earth, wind, fire & water'. Therefore, in consciousness with feature, it is possible for 'naming-forms' to cease but not possible for 'feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and form composed of earth, wind, fire & water' to cease. This might be why the Buddha said the four elements do not cease without remainder but only have no footing.
Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another.
MN 111
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:17 pm
Nibbana Sutta:

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Questionable translation, requiring examination.
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element...

Iti 44

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:10 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 am
Upon arahant's death this Vinnanam anidassanam ceases, stops to exist
annihilation cannot be a worthy goal

nirvana is a worthy goal

hence nirvana cannot be annihilation

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:42 pm

to seek annihilation is suicidal, madness

if anything this teaching is about refuge, sanity
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by James Tan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:

The term 'nama-rupa' comes from Brahmanism, before the Buddha. It literally means 'naming-forms'. Buddha seemed to hijack the term & redefine it as: 'feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and form composed of earth, wind, fire & water'. Therefore, in consciousness with feature, it is possible for 'naming-forms' to cease but not possible for 'feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and form composed of earth, wind, fire & water' to cease. This might be why the Buddha said the four elements do not cease without remainder but only have no footing.




If you don't mind which literature in brahmanism stated namarupa meant naming forms ?
:reading:

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by Zom » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:32 pm

annihilation cannot be a worthy goal

nirvana is a worthy goal

hence nirvana cannot be annihilation

to seek annihilation is suicidal, madness
Don't worry. There is nothing valuable to keep - cravings, clingings and ignorance included 8-) So you can safely let go of everything.

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:36 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:32 pm
you can safely let go of everything.
annihilation isn't safe

I can let go, because it's not annihilation

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by Zom » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm

I can let go, because it's not annihilation
You will let go until you pick it up again in this case ) Craving is bad, get rid of it.

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by justindesilva » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:32 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
I can let go, because it's not annihilation
You will let go until you pick it up again in this case ) Craving is bad, get rid of it.
It is upadana that is stopping to let go rather than craving( tanha).

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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.

Post by Zom » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:16 pm

Craving, clinging, ignorance, delusion, conceit... everything fits here .)

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