But there is no Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ in SN 1.27...aflatun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:47 pm I'm a great admirer of Bhante Sujato, but I find his argument unconvincing. However I appreciate what appears to be his motivation (avoiding eternalism).
I prefer Sylvester's analysis here:
Ven. Bodhi's translation of SN1.27 implies there is essentially one question with one answer here: Cessation and No Footing occur in the same "place."mikeenz66 wrote:Bhante Sujato points out that one should read the DN 11 passage in context and realise that it it talking about two different things: "no footing" and "cessation".
...
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
Of course not. But there is an implied "place" where matter gets no footing and name and form is brought to an end, this can only mean Nibbana. It's hardly a stretch to connect the two suttas with one another and MN49. And doing so alla Sylvester's post is a far more parsimonious explanation than Sujato's and the Eternalists'. We can either read one phrase appearing twice (VA) contextually and in line with the canon as a whole, or violate multiple texts by interpolating formless attainments (which by the way are not beyond the All, so MN49 would still be a problem) and splicing what is one question in SN1.27 into three in DN11, changing the speaker from Buddha to Brahma in MN49, etc, to make things work.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:03 amBut there is no Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ in SN 1.27...aflatun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:47 pm I'm a great admirer of Bhante Sujato, but I find his argument unconvincing. However I appreciate what appears to be his motivation (avoiding eternalism).
I prefer Sylvester's analysis here:
Ven. Bodhi's translation of SN1.27 implies there is essentially one question with one answer here: Cessation and No Footing occur in the same "place."mikeenz66 wrote:Bhante Sujato points out that one should read the DN 11 passage in context and realise that it it talking about two different things: "no footing" and "cessation".
...
I like the first option.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
Well that is semantically close to Ven. Bodhi's translation and would go into the #1 Category of those i listed.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 pmActually he translates it himself here:User1249x wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:50 pm I skimmed thru Sujato's work
...
I also noticed that he works exclusively with Ven. Bodhi's translation of Vinnana Anidassanam which is "Vinnana non-manifesting" ...
Mike
It also does not make much sense imho because consciousness is not something that is visible in general and the term Anidassana has naught to do with vision or invisibility afaik
Fwiw i did make a thread about this on SC and was hoping for Ven. Sujato's participation but unfortunately he missed, abstained or was not compelled to discuss it.
I would like either Ven. Bodhi or Ven. Sujato (or anybody else for that matter) to make an exposition explaining these terms and the relationship between them;
- The Dhamma Eye
- Vinnana Anidassanam
- Nibbana with Residue
- Nibbana without Residue
- The Deathless
- Primary Happiness
Then i would like to see how well they could defend it.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam
Obviously not.
I would suggest to learn what Brahmanism was and then verse may be understood. Essentially, you seem to be asserting the Buddha taught about a secret 7th consciousness to a householder named Kevatta in DN 11 and rude faithless Brahma gods in MN 49 but did not teach the 7th consciousness to his Noble Disciples in the other thousands of suttas in the Nikayas.
All that appears taught here is stopping "naming forms" and stopping judgment discriminations (Hindu non-duality) in order to establish a luminous samadhi. Buddha appears to be telling these Brahman thinkers to "stop thinking!"
Nāmarūpa-vyākaraṇa (Sanskrit: नामरुपव्याकरण ), in Hindu philosophy, refers to the process of evolution of differentiation into names and forms i.e. to the unfolding of the primal state into the manifest world prior to which unfolding there was nothing that existed; it refers to the conditioned reality. In the Upanishads this term is used to indicate the self-willed manifestation of Brahman under visible and nameable aspects, to the said manifestation into the fictitious plurality of the phenomenal world owing to maya, the unreal adjunct. According to Hindu scriptures the world in each age emanates from Brahman mirrored upon maya.
The sage of the Chandogya Upanishad regarded the creation of the universe as a huge chest/egg from a Primeval Being existing as the undifferentiated whole, who alone existed without a second prior to the commencement of the process of creation which was the beginning of the differentiation of the undifferentiated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namarupa-vyakarana
The impression is above is sulking about nothing important. Bodhi doubts the verse, Sujato doubts the verse, many learned Buddhist doubt this verse. Why would a verse spoken to some rude faithless Brahma gods and to a Brahmin householder be important? Didn't the Buddha say in MN 26 that he only teaches the True Subtle Dhamma to those who show faith?
Paritto, upāli, attabhāvo gambhīre gādhaṃ na vindati. Evamevaṃ kho, upāli, yo evaṃ vadeyya: ‘ahaṃ samādhiṃ alabhamāno araññavanapatthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevissāmī’ti, tassetaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ: ‘saṃsīdissati vā uplavissati vā’ti
A small boy does not find footing in the depths. So too, it can be expected that one who would say: "I do not gain concentration, yet I will resort to remote lodgings in forests & jungle groves' will either sink or fall away.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/an10.99
The above was a reply to the wrong view that the four great elements can cease without remainder. Instead, it was said the four great elements merely can have no footing, i.e., are not objects of clinging.
Now, IMPORTANTLY, the suttas spoken to Buddhists (e.g. SN 12.2) define "rupa" as the four great elements. DN 11 says the four great elements cannot cease without remainder. Yet the final verse in DN 11 says name & rupa are brought to an end. This is obviously a CONTRADICTION if the Buddhist meaning of "rupa" is imputed here because the Buddha said the four great elements cannot cease without remainder. But when the Hindu/Brahmin meaning of "nama-rupa" is imputed, i.e., "naming-forms", there is no contradiction. This shows the teachings is not about Buddhist reality but a teaching given to Brahmins in the language of Brahminism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
You've got it wrong. Vinnanam Anidassanam can be any kind of 6-class consciousness, which is devoid of greed, hatred, and delusion. There is no "special nibbanic consciousness" in arahant. He still has 6 types of it. But it is pure and clean, without "future birth projection" (this is why "Anidassanam"). That's the difference.Essentially, you seem to be asserting the Buddha taught about a secret 7th consciousness to a householder named Kevatta in DN 11
In the first case there is "vinnana". It "finds no footing" in elements. This is "nibbana with a residue", that is, just a clean arahant's mind (SN 38.1).Compare definitions of Vinnana Anidassanam;
In the second case there is "final nibbana". This is when all elements (and vinnana as well) stop to exist in a case of a ceased living being known as an arahant.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam
This has not been stated. It is not very logical, how can Contact upon which the delineation of Consciousness depends occur without Four Primary Elements having a footing? I do not understand why the need of bending over backwards when there exists a perfectly reasonable simple explaination.
Furthermore the way you read it raises several questions;
1) Why is it "without feature or signless".
Given that contact at a Sense Base has three constitutes, why exactly was this stated about Vinnana Anidassanam?
2) Why is it called "endless", "limitless" or "boundless"
Given that Consciousness of Aggregates is impermanent, this seems very important and demands an explaination.
3) Why is it refered to as a "place" much like a dimension? Note the question "Where?" and the answer "Here"
4) If it is to be read as you suggest, why has it not been stated?
5) The last part of cessation of concsiousness needs explaination.
How do you explain that with the cessation of consciousness there is consciousness?
6) Consider this;
That’s where earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.’”
If we add your [cravings for] it reads;Viññāṇassa nirodhena etthetaṃ uparujjhatīti.
That’s where cravings for earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There the cravings for both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There the cravings for “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness cravings for all this is destroyed.’”
That would mean that as long as there is Consciousness the craving is not destroyed?
Do we have a theory of Arahants having craving until the breakup of the Aggregates now?
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
"vinnana + without end" also narrows it down because;
Vinnana is a Sankhara but ("sankhara-vinnana" + "without and end") = impossible
Anicca implies Dukkha to the extent that inconstancy is unsatisfying and unreliable.
All formations are Inconstant
All formations are Unsatisfying
All formations are Not-Self
All formations are Dhamma
Not all Dhamma are formations
From this we can know that:
("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = impossible not possible
("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = possible not impossible
Therefore;
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta") = impossible not possible
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible not impossible
"Third Noble Truth" = ("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
"Nibbana" = ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
Couple important Sutta that i belive to explain why Nibbana can be referred to as "Vinnana Anidassanam"
Vinnana is a Sankhara but ("sankhara-vinnana" + "without and end") = impossible
Therefore ("Vinnana" + "without end") appears to mean that we are talking about about a ("Dhamma-Vinnana"+"without an end end") that would be possible. A reality that is not inconstant, not-impermanent.Viññana Sutta: Consciousness
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Anicca implies Dukkha to the extent that inconstancy is unsatisfying and unreliable.
All formations are Inconstant
All formations are Unsatisfying
All formations are Not-Self
All formations are Dhamma
Not all Dhamma are formations
From this we can know that:
("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = impossible not possible
("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = possible not impossible
Therefore;
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta") = impossible not possible
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible not impossible
"Third Noble Truth" = ("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
"Nibbana" = ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
Couple important Sutta that i belive to explain why Nibbana can be referred to as "Vinnana Anidassanam"
Nibbana Sutta:
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Somewhat noteworthy is that both passages are attributed to Ven. SariputtaMahavedalla Sutta:
"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"
"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
DhP 203
Hunger is the highest illness. Conditioned things are the highest suffering.
Having known this as it is, Nirvana is the highest happiness.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
No footing means they don't settle inside the mind, at least, in Buddha's answer. Why? Because craving for them is no more in arahant's mind.how can Contact upon which the delineation of Consciousness depends occur without Four Primary Elements having a footing?
No necessity to add it.If we add your [cravings for] it reads;
To understand that you have to look up to simile about a picture and a painter where this word is used.1) Why is it "without feature or signless".
Boundless, limitless, etc - is the feature of jhanic mind, especially arahants' mind. Same words can be met in brahmaviharas formula.2) Why is it called "endless", "limitless" or "boundless"
Given that Consciousness of Aggregates is impermanent, this seems very important and demands an explaination.
"Passion, friend, is a making of limits. Aversion is a making of limits. Delusion is a making of limits. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is immeasurable awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. (MN 43)
Mind can be a place. Why not?3) Why is it refered to as a "place" much like a dimension? Note the question "Where?" and the answer "Here"
Because this is a riddle! .)4) If it is to be read as you suggest, why has it not been stated?
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
What does "settle in the mind" mean? Do you have a reference for this?Zom wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 amNo footing means they don't settle inside the mind, at least, in Buddha's answer. Why? Because craving for them is no more in arahant's mind.how can Contact upon which the delineation of Consciousness depends occur without Four Primary Elements having a footing?
What is that supposed to mean? You told us that we should read it with the addition. (nvm this point for now, i think i get how you would read it so we can set it aside)
If something is possible does it automatically make it true?
What makes you think that it is a riddle?
So you think that endless is a wrong translation? Can you explain why it is wrong?Zom wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 amBoundless, limitless, etc - is the feature of jhanic mind, especially arahants' mind. Same words can be met in brahmaviharas formula.2) Why is it called "endless", "limitless" or "boundless"
Given that Consciousness of Aggregates is impermanent, this seems very important and demands an explaination."Passion, friend, is a making of limits. Aversion is a making of limits. Delusion is a making of limits. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is immeasurable awareness-release, the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. (MN 43)
Well it is not that difficult to understand the painter thing as it merely refers to empty space being unsuitable medium for painting pictures.
How do you explain it in relation to the Consciousness of an Arahant tho?
Does his consciousness not cognize?
I will ask you this too;
How sure are you about your position and can you point out the flaw in my interpretation?
Last edited by User1249x on Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
Sorry. But the suttas do not say this. It does not matter how many times the above is continually posted on this forum. The suttas never ever ever never define vinnanam anidassanam as consciousness devoid of greed, hatred and delusion. Vinnanam anidassanam is exclusively a teaching given to Brahmins & appears to be about stopping 'naming forms' (Brahmin nama-rupa). As a clear indisputable example, the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness (6th jhana) is never regarded as Nibbana nor as devoid of greed, hatred and delusion (refer to MN 121; MN 111; etc) yet the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness is obviously luminous.
This quote has defeated your argument because the above quote refers to Sunnata (Emptiness). However the part of the quote about immeasurable awareness-release (appamāṇā cetovimuttiyo) refers to Brahma Vihara.Zom wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:38 pm Passion, friend, is a making of limits. Aversion is a making of limits. Delusion is a making of limits. In a monk whose fermentations are ended, these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Now, to the extent that there is immeasurable awareness-release (appamāṇā cetovimuttiyo), the unprovoked awareness-release ((panākuppā cetovimutti) is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. (MN 43)
There is the case where a monk keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.
"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with compassion ... an awareness imbued with appreciation...
"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with equanimity. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with equanimity: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.
This is called the immeasurable awareness-release.
MN 43
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
My intellect almost broke trying to analyze the modified verse
Question;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?
Answer 1)
In The Consciousness of an Arahant.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.
Answer 2)
In nibbana
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.
So basically the #1 is a roundabout way of saying that the answer to the question is Parinibbana but bending over backwards to maintain that Vinnana Anidassanam is not Nibbana.
This is done by saying that elements do not have footing in consciousness of an Arahant (which makes no sense to me [1]) stating that craving for name&form rather than the name&form itself are abscent there, then it goes on to say that with the cessation of that consciousness of an Arahant, attainment of Parinibbana, primary elements are destroyed along with name & form.
This is a dangerous view because it postulates Nibbana with Residue in the Here&Now for the Arahant as i understand it. Nibbana with residue has never been equated to any kind of Rupa Jhana or "jhanic state" in the here and now.
[1] This makes no sense because Consciousness Arises dependent on Nama&Rupa and in case of a living Arahant, walking, talking Arahant it depends on primary elements for Eye, Ear, Nose etc are derived from the primary elements and other organs are of the primary Elements. What exactly is meant by them not gaining footing in his mind is not something i can answer.
but i think i managed to simplify it, below i offer two simplified positions
Question;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?
Answer 1)
In The Consciousness of an Arahant.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.
Answer 2)
In nibbana
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.
So basically the #1 is a roundabout way of saying that the answer to the question is Parinibbana but bending over backwards to maintain that Vinnana Anidassanam is not Nibbana.
This is done by saying that elements do not have footing in consciousness of an Arahant (which makes no sense to me [1]) stating that craving for name&form rather than the name&form itself are abscent there, then it goes on to say that with the cessation of that consciousness of an Arahant, attainment of Parinibbana, primary elements are destroyed along with name & form.
This is a dangerous view because it postulates Nibbana with Residue in the Here&Now for the Arahant as i understand it. Nibbana with residue has never been equated to any kind of Rupa Jhana or "jhanic state" in the here and now.
[1] This makes no sense because Consciousness Arises dependent on Nama&Rupa and in case of a living Arahant, walking, talking Arahant it depends on primary elements for Eye, Ear, Nose etc are derived from the primary elements and other organs are of the primary Elements. What exactly is meant by them not gaining footing in his mind is not something i can answer.
Last edited by User1249x on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
How can a destroyed consciousness be luminous all round?
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
As i understand Zom's position The Luminous consciousness is like mundane consciousness but without delusion and this is what makes it luminous all around, like a jhanic state basically. It is not destroyed until the breakup of the body.
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
Luminous mind can be defiled. Luminous mind does not mean defilements have been uprooted.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Indeed. Keep delving with the knife of wisdom (MN 23). I provided an logical answer previously but I am not aware of one Buddhist prepared to accept the term 'nama-rupa' has two meanings in the Pali suttas dependent upon context. But I am happy to go it alone, like a Rhinoceros.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. General Theravada Version.
I've no idea what you are talking about but i edited it a bit.DooDoot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:28 am Indeed. Keep delving with the knife of wisdom (MN 23). I provided an logical answer previously but I am not aware of one Buddhist prepared to accept the term 'nama-rupa' has two meanings in the Pali suttas dependent upon context. But I am happy to go it alone, like a Rhinoceros.