What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
2600htz
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

1)The Buddha did say that jhanas are the way to nibbana
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."
2)This is what Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta where missing:
"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
So, they had singleness of mind but not the rest of the eightfold path!, and because of that it was wrong concentration, it didn´t lead to cessation.

3)Take mindfulness of breathing, that meditation existed way before the Buddha, in SN 54.6, A monk tells the Buddha the way he practices the breathing meditation, probably the way many ascetics did it at the time, the Buddha explains that yes, there is that breathing meditation, but in order to fullfil fully his teachings it has to be done a little bit different
"But how do you develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, Arittha?"

"Having abandoned sensual desire for past sensual pleasures, lord, having done away with sensual desire for future sensual pleasures, and having thoroughly subdued perceptions of irritation with regard to internal & external events, I breathe in mindfully and breathe out mindfully."[1]

"There is that mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, Arittha. I don't say that there isn't. But as to how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is brought in detail to its culmination, listen and pay close attention. I will speak............................"
Regards.
befriend
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by befriend »

Dispassion leads to nibbana. The mind revults at all existence and the mind turns away from the world and turns towards the deathless element. Correct me if I'm mistaken.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
dharmacorps
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by dharmacorps »

Wouldn't we have to say that Jhanas are just part of the 8 fold path?
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Zom
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by Zom »

What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?
Right Views is that missing ingredient.
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anthbrown84
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by anthbrown84 »

I have to say... i think bhante vimalaramsi has a very good case that the type of jhana The Buddha rejects, is infact a different type of Jhana to the one he praises,
time and time again throughout the suttas.

I have good reason to believe the correct type of Jhana does infact show you, in the highers states, the links of dependent origination... seeing all 12 of these, right to the delusion link, leads directly to Nibbāna

Anthony
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate
pyluyten
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by pyluyten »

i consider your question to be a very good one

a) sutta do not call "arupa" attainments "jhanas" ( there is no "arupajhana" in suttas)
b) jhana, are not a distinct practice from vipassana. Jhana are both samatha and vipassana.
c) some sutta say buddha was taught arupa attainments

so we have many possible conclusions here

i) jhana were already taught, and so nibbana
ii ) jhana were already taught, but not nibbana. The missing ingredient is either in the way of life side, or in the knowledge side.
iii) "arupa" were taught, but not jhana. Buddha taught jhana and nibbana, and there is no missing ingredient appart of course jhana are part of the Path.
auto
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by auto »

Beings do the things they do because of passion, ignorance or aversion.
At the same time if you do something long enough time you get dispassion, learn or get used to it.

So logic is if you have dispassion arising, you don't want to watch TV anymore then you should force yourself to continue watch TV and see what you otherwise out of habit always not see. So there is lot of things you don't experience because of various conditions affecting you to quit.

So jhana factors are the helpers what help you stay with the object. So eventually if you get through 3rd jhana what is either too good or too bad you get to equanimity. Anyways you should notice also mind(namarupa) what is free from the object.
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form
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Re: What is this missing ingredient between Jhanas and Nibbana?

Post by form »

There are only 4 jhanas.
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