Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

One life model
0
No votes
One life model and moment to moment
6
15%
Two lives model
0
No votes
Three lives model
3
8%
Three lives model and moment to moment
9
23%
Multiple lives model
3
8%
Multiple lives model & moment-to-moment
7
18%
Moment to moment only
1
3%
Timeless/Atemporal/Structural
7
18%
Simultaneous, non-linear
4
10%
 
Total votes: 40

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21871
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:37 am

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 am
becoming a stream enterer is not about dependent arising

it's rather about seeing arising and ceasing
Agreed, which is why I asked Circle5...

What do you think it is that arises?
What do you think it is that the arisen is dependent upon?

He did answer one question I put to him, but not these two.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:46 am

"There is, my friend, the Great Contemplative, a son of the Sakyans, gone forth from a Sakyan family. I have gone forth on account of that Blessed One. That Blessed One is my teacher. And it is in that Blessed One's Dhamma that I delight."

"But what is your teacher's teaching? What does he proclaim?''

"I am new, my friend, not long gone forth, only recently come to this Dhamma & Discipline. I cannot explain the Dhamma in detail, but I will tell you the gist in brief."

Then Sariputta the wanderer spoke thus to the Ven. Assaji:

Speak a little or a lot,
but tell me just the gist.
The gist is what I want.
What use is a lot of verbosity?

Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.

Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
on hearing the lines in italics sariputta attained stream entry. moggallana had to hear all four lines
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3107
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:54 am

arising and ceasing isn't DO

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12668
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by DNS » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:54 am

SDC wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:08 am
Option 8: Timeless/Atemporal/Structural

David, I take the flagrant rejection of this model as a personal insult. :tongue:

For those unfamiliar with this model, see Ven.'s Nanavira, N. Nanamoli and Ariyavamsa. As I understand it, instead of attempting to explain a sequence - whether it be over the course of one, two or three lives, psychologically through "mind moments", or through some hybrid of the two - this model does not involve sequence at all. It does not explain any sort of process. Instead it describes the structure of suffering: the full arrangement of the different 'layers/factors' of that suffering, and how they, in pairs, depend on one another irrespective of time.
That would be most closest to the 'moment-to-moment only' option . . . or perhaps momentarianism or is it movementarianism?



(just kidding) :tongue:

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6417
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by bodom » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:08 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 am
becoming a stream enterer is not about dependent arising
Oh but it most certainly is!
"And which are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed?

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals [1] — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.'

"He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.

"These are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed.

"And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3107
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:12 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:08 am
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 am
becoming a stream enterer is not about dependent arising
Oh but it most certainly is!
it most certainly is assumed to be

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6417
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by bodom » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:14 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:12 am
bodom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:08 am
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 am
becoming a stream enterer is not about dependent arising
Oh but it most certainly is!
it most certainly is assumed to be
There is no more assuming. It has been presented to you in black and white from the suttas.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3107
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:16 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:14 am
It has been presented to you in black and white from the suttas.

actually I think the suttas cut and paste that assumption
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by aflatun » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:17 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:08 am
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:30 am
becoming a stream enterer is not about dependent arising
Oh but it most certainly is!
"And which are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed?

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals [1] — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.'

"He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.

"These are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed.

"And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:namaste:

:goodpost:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3107
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:18 am

in other words, you have monks assuming the same thing

then putting together the teaching just so

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3107
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:23 am

it's the same err, whether in the suttas or here

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by pilgrim » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:23 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:54 am
arising and ceasing isn't DO
Exactly...ppl confuse Causation with DO. When it is the principle of Causation that is a prerequisite to accepting DO. This is made clear in the Assutava sutta.

"'When this is, that is.
"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
"'When this isn't, that isn't.
"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:
"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.........

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3107
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:25 am

a thought arises and ceases

a feeling arises and ceases

SarathW
Posts: 12762
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 am

If camp fire became the grass fire and the grass fire may become the bushfire what sort of a model is that?
What we see is the same fire (is it?) continue due to nutriments even though we can identify them with distinct difference.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 5150
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by SDC » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:25 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:54 am



(just kidding) :tongue:
Nice!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kamui and 144 guests