Dinsdale wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:07 am
boundless wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:05 am
If DO is timeless, how can it explain:
1) change? (after all "change" requires time. Sorry for the somewhat trivial question...)
2) that "physical ageing and death" is conditioned by "physical birth"?
I think it's also interesting to view DO as an elaboration of the Second and Third Noble Truths.
I am glad to hear that they are "good questions" (especially the first, since I thought that was quite trivial, instead
Anyway, I agree. I think that the same could be said for other teachings, such as the three marks. In fact I think that "impermanence" (anicca) IMO is
of Dependent Arising, i.e. whatever dependently arises have to cease once conditions change.
But I think that DO applies also to material phenomena. Fires are dependent phenomena and they are impermanent, the same is true for mountains etc. So "sabbe sankhara anicca" applies to physical phenomena. However fire is obviously a dependent phenomenon, once there is no more "fuel" it ceases.
I think that it is quite obvious that the "sequential" model is valid in certain cases: "ageing" has "birth" as a condition. In my understanding at the same time, however, once ignorance (not self-view, but ignorance) is removed then craving ceases etc. This is why, in my opinion sequential and structural interpetations of DO are valid.
At the same time, the Aharant has feelings but not craving (craving is dependent on both ignorance and feeling). This is because AFAIK once ignorance is eradicated there is no more craving (hence we have an example of the "structural" model). However the "twelve links" has the first "link" as "ignorance". Taken literally this would imply that as ignorance is eradicated, feeling too would cease, which is not true, obviously.
Also, at SN 36:11
we are told that "whatever is felt is within suffering", whereas the second Noble Truths asserts that "suffering" is not due to "feeling" but to "craving". So even "suffering" has multiple meanings. I think that the same can be true for DO. After all the Dhamma is said to be "deep... beyond the scope of reasoning etc".
What is the difference between the three/two lives model and "multiple" lives model?