Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

One life model
0
No votes
One life model and moment to moment
6
15%
Two lives model
0
No votes
Three lives model
3
8%
Three lives model and moment to moment
8
20%
Multiple lives model
3
8%
Multiple lives model & moment-to-moment
7
18%
Moment to moment only
2
5%
Timeless/Atemporal/Structural
7
18%
Simultaneous, non-linear
4
10%
 
Total votes: 40

binocular
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:33 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am
simultaneous, non-linear
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
For an analogy, I think of a functional car: In order for there to be a functional car, there simultaneously exist an engine, four wheels, a chassis, a tank with gasoline, all kinds of lines, a steering wheel etc., all those things needed for a car to be functional. In a functional car, all these components exist simultaneously, and are simultaneously needed for there to be a functional car. In a functional car, when there are four wheels, there is an engine; when there's a steering wheel, there's a chassis, etc.; the components can be paired up randomly, depending on our perspective and what we wish to point out, but they all need to be simultaneously present in order for there to be a functional car. The components also don't cause eachother: the engine doesn't cause the steering wheel, nor do the wheels cause the gasoline tank, etc.

(There is, of course, a point at which any analogy breaks down. But I think the above explains simultaneity and non-linearity.)

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DNS
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by DNS » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:04 pm

Okay, I updated it again and now we have all or at least most of the possible options. The system limits it to no more than 10 options, so I removed one of the 2 lives models as that had zero votes anyway from previous polling.

Time to vote again!

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cappuccino
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:11 pm

I understand ignorance leads to everything.

Then I think, so what.

More important is other teachings.

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:13 pm

I quite liked Ven Analayo's presentation that I linked to here:
viewtopic.php?t=30940

The executive summary is that the last half (roughly) of the links can be thought of as occurring over time, and the first half in a timeless/stuctural way.

There are many other interesting discussions on this Forum. I found that examining the "structural" view in detail was quite useful to me, though I think that there is an overinterpretation of the term "timeless":
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23443

This one gives links to many other discussions: viewtopic.php?t=12369

:heart:
Mike

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 pm

Greetings,
aflatun wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:49 pm
If you include

Timeless/Atemporal/Structural & Multiple Lives

I know a lunatic that would vote for it (me)
I don't understand why the poll needs multiple options per line. Isn't it about which "resonates with you the most"?

Even if you accept more than one, I'm sure one still "resonates with you the most"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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one_awakening
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by one_awakening » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:52 am

Three problem with the three lifetime model, is that to eliminate ignorance, you have to go back to your previous life.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:37 am

one_awakening wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:52 am
The problem with the three lifetime model, is that to eliminate ignorance, you have to go back to your previous life.
This jaw-droppingly fatuous misunderstanding of the three-life exposition was already addressed by pilgrim on the first page of this thread.

The problem you describe would arise only if it were being claimed that avijjā was present in the previous life but is absent in this one. But it isn't. What is claimed is that there is avijjā in every life and if you eradicate the avijjā of this life then there won't be any causes to bring about a next life.

Also on the first page of this thread:
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:10 am
I don't think the 3-lives model is well understood by those who criticise it.
:thumbsup:

Pali text of Visuddhimagga ch. XVII with line-by-line English and Russian translations:

https://www.theravada.su/node/2332

(To remove the Russian just uncheck the box marked "Русский khantibalo")

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one_awakening
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by one_awakening » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:54 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:37 am
The problem you describe would arise only if it were being claimed that avijjā was present in the previous life but is absent in this one. But it isn't. What is claimed is that there is avijjā in every life and if you eradicate the avijjā of this life then there won't be any causes to bring about a next life.
But ignorance is only listed once. If all twelve links occur in each life and we are to see the entire process from three different perspectives, then as far as I can see, this is another interpretation.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by James Tan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:33 am

Greetings ,

May I ask , moment to moment , meaning from 1 second to another second in time calculation ?

3 lives models meaning Past Present Future ?

Multiple lives meaning starting beginning of existence ?

Thanks.
:reading:

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:00 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:03 am
your sequential translation is not in the actual pāli nor is there any distinction between two modes in the actual pāli
Two modes of conditionality are described. They are differently phrased in both the original Pali, and in English translations.

The first mode is contemporaneous ( B is present while A is present ), for example suffering persists while ignorance persists, and ceases when ignorance ceases.

The second mode is sequential ( B arises as a result of A arising ), for example craving arises a result of feeling arising ( while ignorance persists! ). Note that here craving follows feeling.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:07 am

boundless wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:05 am
If DO is timeless, how can it explain:
1) change? (after all "change" requires time. Sorry for the somewhat trivial question...)
2) that "physical ageing and death" is conditioned by "physical birth"?
Good questions. DO seems basically to be about arising and ceasing in dependence upon conditions, and I don't see how this could take place without the passage of time.

I think it's also interesting to view DO as an elaboration of the Second and Third Noble Truths.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 am
the simultaneity of it is in the actual text, i don't know how it could be more clear
"when this is, this is"
"when this isn't, this isn't"

this does not become false or invalid in the 2nd & 4th lines, it is the same principle applied to arising/ceasing, coming/going, as opposed to existence/nonexistence, enduring & remaining
The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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James Tan
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by James Tan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:00 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:03 am
your sequential translation is not in the actual pāli nor is there any distinction between two modes in the actual pāli
Two modes of conditionality are described. They are differently phrased in both the original Pali, and in English translations.

The first mode is contemporaneous ( B is present while A is present ), for example suffering persists while ignorance persists, and ceases when ignorance ceases.

The second mode is sequential ( B arises as a result of A arising ), for example craving arises a result of feeling arising ( while ignorance persists! ). Note that here craving follows feeling.
Does craving Always(all the time) following Feeling or not always ?
:reading:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 am
the simultaneity of it is in the actual text, i don't know how it could be more clear
"when this is, this is"
"when this isn't, this isn't"

this does not become false or invalid in the 2nd & 4th lines, it is the same principle applied to arising/ceasing, coming/going, as opposed to existence/nonexistence, enduring & remaining
The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
:thumbsup: Yes, this is my understanding, and - whether true or not! - you have expressed it very well.

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:03 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 am
the simultaneity of it is in the actual text, i don't know how it could be more clear
"when this is, this is"
"when this isn't, this isn't"

this does not become false or invalid in the 2nd & 4th lines, it is the same principle applied to arising/ceasing, coming/going, as opposed to existence/nonexistence, enduring & remaining
The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
:thumbsup: Yes, this is my understanding, and - whether true or not! - you have expressed it very well.
What I'm less clear about is how these modes apply to the dependent relationship between specific nidanas. I think both modes could be applied in some cases.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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