Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

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Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

One life model
0
No votes
One life model and moment to moment
6
15%
Two lives model
0
No votes
Three lives model
3
8%
Three lives model and moment to moment
8
20%
Multiple lives model
3
8%
Multiple lives model & moment-to-moment
7
18%
Moment to moment only
2
5%
Timeless/Atemporal/Structural
7
18%
Simultaneous, non-linear
4
10%
 
Total votes: 40

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binocular
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:33 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am
simultaneous, non-linear
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
For an analogy, I think of a functional car: In order for there to be a functional car, there simultaneously exist an engine, four wheels, a chassis, a tank with gasoline, all kinds of lines, a steering wheel etc., all those things needed for a car to be functional. In a functional car, all these components exist simultaneously, and are simultaneously needed for there to be a functional car. In a functional car, when there are four wheels, there is an engine; when there's a steering wheel, there's a chassis, etc.; the components can be paired up randomly, depending on our perspective and what we wish to point out, but they all need to be simultaneously present in order for there to be a functional car. The components also don't cause eachother: the engine doesn't cause the steering wheel, nor do the wheels cause the gasoline tank, etc.

(There is, of course, a point at which any analogy breaks down. But I think the above explains simultaneity and non-linearity.)

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by DNS » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:04 pm

Okay, I updated it again and now we have all or at least most of the possible options. The system limits it to no more than 10 options, so I removed one of the 2 lives models as that had zero votes anyway from previous polling.

Time to vote again!

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:11 pm

I understand ignorance leads to everything.

Then I think, so what.

More important is other teachings.

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:13 pm

I quite liked Ven Analayo's presentation that I linked to here:
viewtopic.php?t=30940

The executive summary is that the last half (roughly) of the links can be thought of as occurring over time, and the first half in a timeless/stuctural way.

There are many other interesting discussions on this Forum. I found that examining the "structural" view in detail was quite useful to me, though I think that there is an overinterpretation of the term "timeless":
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23443

This one gives links to many other discussions: viewtopic.php?t=12369

:heart:
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 pm

Greetings,
aflatun wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:49 pm
If you include

Timeless/Atemporal/Structural & Multiple Lives

I know a lunatic that would vote for it (me)
I don't understand why the poll needs multiple options per line. Isn't it about which "resonates with you the most"?

Even if you accept more than one, I'm sure one still "resonates with you the most"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by one_awakening » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:52 am

Three problem with the three lifetime model, is that to eliminate ignorance, you have to go back to your previous life.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:37 am

one_awakening wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:52 am
The problem with the three lifetime model, is that to eliminate ignorance, you have to go back to your previous life.
This jaw-droppingly fatuous misunderstanding of the three-life exposition was already addressed by pilgrim on the first page of this thread.

The problem you describe would arise only if it were being claimed that avijjā was present in the previous life but is absent in this one. But it isn't. What is claimed is that there is avijjā in every life and if you eradicate the avijjā of this life then there won't be any causes to bring about a next life.

Also on the first page of this thread:
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:10 am
I don't think the 3-lives model is well understood by those who criticise it.
:thumbsup:

Pali text of Visuddhimagga ch. XVII with line-by-line English and Russian translations:

https://www.theravada.su/node/2332

(To remove the Russian just uncheck the box marked "Русский khantibalo")
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

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solitarius colens non segnis,
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in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by one_awakening » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:54 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:37 am
The problem you describe would arise only if it were being claimed that avijjā was present in the previous life but is absent in this one. But it isn't. What is claimed is that there is avijjā in every life and if you eradicate the avijjā of this life then there won't be any causes to bring about a next life.
But ignorance is only listed once. If all twelve links occur in each life and we are to see the entire process from three different perspectives, then as far as I can see, this is another interpretation.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by James Tan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:33 am

Greetings ,

May I ask , moment to moment , meaning from 1 second to another second in time calculation ?

3 lives models meaning Past Present Future ?

Multiple lives meaning starting beginning of existence ?

Thanks.
:reading:

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:00 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:03 am
your sequential translation is not in the actual pāli nor is there any distinction between two modes in the actual pāli
Two modes of conditionality are described. They are differently phrased in both the original Pali, and in English translations.

The first mode is contemporaneous ( B is present while A is present ), for example suffering persists while ignorance persists, and ceases when ignorance ceases.

The second mode is sequential ( B arises as a result of A arising ), for example craving arises a result of feeling arising ( while ignorance persists! ). Note that here craving follows feeling.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:07 am

boundless wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:05 am
If DO is timeless, how can it explain:
1) change? (after all "change" requires time. Sorry for the somewhat trivial question...)
2) that "physical ageing and death" is conditioned by "physical birth"?
Good questions. DO seems basically to be about arising and ceasing in dependence upon conditions, and I don't see how this could take place without the passage of time.

I think it's also interesting to view DO as an elaboration of the Second and Third Noble Truths.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 am
the simultaneity of it is in the actual text, i don't know how it could be more clear
"when this is, this is"
"when this isn't, this isn't"

this does not become false or invalid in the 2nd & 4th lines, it is the same principle applied to arising/ceasing, coming/going, as opposed to existence/nonexistence, enduring & remaining
The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by James Tan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:00 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:03 am
your sequential translation is not in the actual pāli nor is there any distinction between two modes in the actual pāli
Two modes of conditionality are described. They are differently phrased in both the original Pali, and in English translations.

The first mode is contemporaneous ( B is present while A is present ), for example suffering persists while ignorance persists, and ceases when ignorance ceases.

The second mode is sequential ( B arises as a result of A arising ), for example craving arises a result of feeling arising ( while ignorance persists! ). Note that here craving follows feeling.
Does craving Always(all the time) following Feeling or not always ?
:reading:

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 am
the simultaneity of it is in the actual text, i don't know how it could be more clear
"when this is, this is"
"when this isn't, this isn't"

this does not become false or invalid in the 2nd & 4th lines, it is the same principle applied to arising/ceasing, coming/going, as opposed to existence/nonexistence, enduring & remaining
The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
:thumbsup: Yes, this is my understanding, and - whether true or not! - you have expressed it very well.

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:03 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:12 am
the simultaneity of it is in the actual text, i don't know how it could be more clear
"when this is, this is"
"when this isn't, this isn't"

this does not become false or invalid in the 2nd & 4th lines, it is the same principle applied to arising/ceasing, coming/going, as opposed to existence/nonexistence, enduring & remaining
The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
:thumbsup: Yes, this is my understanding, and - whether true or not! - you have expressed it very well.
What I'm less clear about is how these modes apply to the dependent relationship between specific nidanas. I think both modes could be applied in some cases.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:07 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:26 pm
Will that make it complete? Are there any other options missing before I update it?
Thanks, that is more comprehensive.

My current option is "My brain hurts!" :jumping:

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:09 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:03 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:13 am


The principle is simply one thing being dependent upon another. The principle is described as operating in two different modes, one contemporaneous, the other sequential. Simply put, while and when.

While there are no clouds, you can see the sun in the sky ( 1st mode ). When clouds arise, you can't see the sun ( 2nd mode ).
:thumbsup: Yes, this is my understanding, and - whether true or not! - you have expressed it very well.
What I'm less clear about is how these modes apply to the dependent relationship between specific nidanas. I think both modes could be applied in some cases.
I don't see why not. Your own "clouds" example makes it clear that both can apply. I don't know, but my guess is that the idappaccayata formula is the most general summary of DO that it is possible to formulate. Do you have specific examples where either one or both modes apply?

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by boundless » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:11 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:07 am
boundless wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:05 am
If DO is timeless, how can it explain:
1) change? (after all "change" requires time. Sorry for the somewhat trivial question...)
2) that "physical ageing and death" is conditioned by "physical birth"?
Good questions.

I think it's also interesting to view DO as an elaboration of the Second and Third Noble Truths.
Hello Dinsdale,

I am glad to hear that they are "good questions" (especially the first, since I thought that was quite trivial, instead :D ).

Anyway, I agree. I think that the same could be said for other teachings, such as the three marks. In fact I think that "impermanence" (anicca) IMO is a consequence of Dependent Arising, i.e. whatever dependently arises have to cease once conditions change.

But I think that DO applies also to material phenomena. Fires are dependent phenomena and they are impermanent, the same is true for mountains etc. So "sabbe sankhara anicca" applies to physical phenomena. However fire is obviously a dependent phenomenon, once there is no more "fuel" it ceases.

I think that it is quite obvious that the "sequential" model is valid in certain cases: "ageing" has "birth" as a condition. In my understanding at the same time, however, once ignorance (not self-view, but ignorance) is removed then craving ceases etc. This is why, in my opinion sequential and structural interpetations of DO are valid.

At the same time, the Aharant has feelings but not craving (craving is dependent on both ignorance and feeling). This is because AFAIK once ignorance is eradicated there is no more craving (hence we have an example of the "structural" model). However the "twelve links" has the first "link" as "ignorance". Taken literally this would imply that as ignorance is eradicated, feeling too would cease, which is not true, obviously.

Also, at SN 36:11 we are told that "whatever is felt is within suffering", whereas the second Noble Truths asserts that "suffering" is not due to "feeling" but to "craving". So even "suffering" has multiple meanings. I think that the same can be true for DO. After all the Dhamma is said to be "deep... beyond the scope of reasoning etc".

:anjali:

P.S.

What is the difference between the three/two lives model and "multiple" lives model?

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:20 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:09 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:03 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:46 am


:thumbsup: Yes, this is my understanding, and - whether true or not! - you have expressed it very well.
What I'm less clear about is how these modes apply to the dependent relationship between specific nidanas. I think both modes could be applied in some cases.
I don't see why not. Your own "clouds" example makes it clear that both can apply. I don't know, but my guess is that the idappaccayata formula is the most general summary of DO that it is possible to formulate. Do you have specific examples where either one or both modes apply?
I suggested ignorance and suffering as an example of the first mode, ie while ignorance is present, then suffering is present.

I suggested feeling and craving as an example of the second mode, ie when feeling arises, then craving arises. Though craving and clinging might be an example of the first mode.

I think the distinction between the two modes of conditionality is essentially that dependent states, and changes of state. Like while the temperature is below zero degree C. then ice is present. When the temperature rises above zero degrees, then the ice changes to water.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:49 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:20 am

I suggested ignorance and suffering as an example of the first mode, ie while ignorance is present, then suffering is present.

I suggested feeling and craving as an example of the second mode, ie when feeling arises, then craving arises. Though craving and clinging might be an example of the first mode.

I think the distinction between the two modes of conditionality is essentially that dependent states, and changes of state. Like while the temperature is below zero degree C. then ice is present. When the temperature rises above zero degrees, then the ice changes to water.
Yes, I agree. For practical purposes, though, I tend to see them as interchangeable and potentially as applying to all links. "Eliminate X if you can, because it is either currently supporting Y, or a Y will be along in a moment...". Idappaccayata seems to be a poetic summary of the fact that if something is bothering you, then there is something that you can do about it. I see the "nuts and bolts" as the elements of actual practice which one comes to see as instantiating the general principle.

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