Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

One life model
0
No votes
One life model and moment to moment
6
15%
Two lives model
0
No votes
Three lives model
3
8%
Three lives model and moment to moment
8
20%
Multiple lives model
3
8%
Multiple lives model & moment-to-moment
7
18%
Moment to moment only
2
5%
Timeless/Atemporal/Structural
7
18%
Simultaneous, non-linear
4
10%
 
Total votes: 40

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DNS
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Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by DNS » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:53 am

I don't believe we have had a poll on this in all these years here at DW. (If we already had one, let me know.)

For a pretty good summary of the main views on DO; pros and cons, see:
http://www.leighb.com/deporg1.htm#2

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:08 am

Is multiple models an option? Even the ancient traditions (Theravada, Sarvastivada, etc) seem to have both a three-life and a moment to moment model.

And many modern teachers/commentators use that model. E.g. Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
These factors come down to the five aggregates. In fact, the entire
pattern of dependent co-arising is a map showing how the different
aggregates group, disband, and regroup in one another’s presence in a
variety of configurations, giving rise to stress and to the cosmos at large
[§212]. As we have mentioned earlier, one of the most basic features of the
Buddha’s teachings is his confirmation that the knowable cosmos,
composed of old kamma [§15], is made up of the same factors that make
up the personality [§213]; and that the interaction of the aggregates, as
immediately present to awareness in the here and now, is the same process
that underlies the functioning of the knowable cosmos as a whole [§§212-
15]. As a result, the descriptions of dependent co-arising slip easily back
and forth between two time scales—events in the present moment and
events over the vast cycle of time.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... 180131.pdf Page 345.
:heart:
Mike

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:09 am

Greetings,

Personally I'd call my understanding "non time-delineated" (akālika), but as far as the available options go, it correlates most closely to what Leigh defined as "moment-to-moment" (whilst also rejecting the notion of atomized and discrete "moments"!)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by DNS » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:18 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:08 am
Is multiple models an option? Even the ancient traditions (Theravada, Sarvastivada, etc) seem to have both a three-life and a moment to moment model.
I could be wrong, but I assumed that those who accept multiple models always include the moment-to-moment, along with one of the other models named, so they should choose the moment-to-moment option in the above poll options.

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by James Tan » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:21 am

Greetings ,


FYI ,

Here is my two cents for your reference .
It is Not about 3 life model or moment to moment .

1. Ignorant sankhara consciousness to namarupa ~ is description of an Adept insight level of the processes of dependent origination
2. Six sense base feeling craving clinging bhava
~ is description of a Trainee insight level of the processes of dependent origination .
3. Birth old age death ~ is description for Non practising Ordinary person .

:namaste:
Last edited by James Tan on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by dylanj » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:45 am

simultaneous
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:14 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:18 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:08 am
Is multiple models an option? Even the ancient traditions (Theravada, Sarvastivada, etc) seem to have both a three-life and a moment to moment model.
I could be wrong, but I assumed that those who accept multiple models always include the moment-to-moment, along with one of the other models named, so they should choose the moment-to-moment option in the above poll options.
But that would mean that Thanissaro and Retro would tick the same box, which really doesn't make sense. Their views are quite distinct.

Mike

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by pilgrim » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:24 am

How are the one-life model and the moment to moment models compatible with the Maha-Nidana sutta , DN 15 which gives a definition of the links? in particular the 2 links where a new Life occurs, quoted below.

Namarupa/Name and Form - 'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?

Jati/Birth - ''From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:40 am

pilgrim wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:24 am
How are the one-life model and the moment to moment models compatible with the Maha-Nidana sutta , DN 15 which gives a definition of the links?
I don't think they are, unless you rewrite the nidana "definitions" to fit your preferred theory. The nidana "definitions" seem to describe a psycho-physical process, not a purely psychological one. They are repeated in SN12.2 and MN9.

For example birth, aging and death are clearly described as physical events and processes, not as purely psychological ones. Physical birth ( jati ) arises in dependence on bhava ( existence or becoming in the three realms ), which suggests that bhava is the cycle of birth and death, ie samsara.

Could we add an option for "multiple lives"?

From SN12.2:

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming."
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:46 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:53 am
For a pretty good summary of the main views on DO; pros and cons, see:
http://www.leighb.com/deporg1.htm#2
Unfortunately he omits a "multiple lives" model, which IMO is what the nidana "definitions" actually support.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:47 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:08 am
Is multiple models an option? Even the ancient traditions (Theravada, Sarvastivada, etc) seem to have both a three-life and a moment to moment model.
Could you be more specific, Mike? Where exactly is support for the moment-to-moment interpretation to be found in these ancient traditions?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by pilgrim » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:43 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:53 am
For a pretty good summary of the main views on DO; pros and cons, see:
http://www.leighb.com/deporg1.htm#2

I find Leigh's "Problems with the 3 Lives model" to be silly. He says :
"But look what happens when you lay the "cessation chain" on top of the 3 Lives Model: With the ceasing of Ignorance in your previous life, there is the ceasing of Sankharas in your previous life. Therefore since the Sankharas ceased, your Consciousness and Mind & Body have ceased in this life. Oh wait, if you are reading this, then I guess your Consciousness and Mind & Body have not ceased in this life! So in order to get free of Dukkha in your next life, you need to go back to your previous life and generate the "remainderless fading & cessation of ignorance." This does present a serious problem"

By his argument, Old Age and Death only happens in the next life and does not exist in the current life. Obviously, the 3 Lives model is not to be understood in this manner. All 12 links exist in every life, but the genius of the Buddha shows when he separates it out so that we see the entire process from 3 different perspectives - the Mechanical in the 1st life, the psycho-physical process in the 2nd life and the philosophical in the 3rd life.

I remember dissecting a frog in my school science class, laying the digestive organs on one side, the skeleton in the middle and the reproductive organs on the other side. Obviously, a frog does not exist in that state but the intention is to see how they all work together. :tongue:

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:10 am

pilgrim wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:43 am
Obviously, the 3 Lives model is not to be understood in this manner. All 12 links exist in every life, but the genius of the Buddha shows when he separates it out so that we see the entire process from 3 different perspectives - the Mechanical in the 1st life, the psycho-physical process in the 2nd life and the philosophical in the 3rd life.
I don't think the 3-lives model is well understood by those who criticise it.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:01 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:47 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:08 am
Is multiple models an option? Even the ancient traditions (Theravada, Sarvastivada, etc) seem to have both a three-life and a moment to moment model.
Could you be more specific, Mike? Where exactly is support for the moment-to-moment interpretation to be found in these ancient traditions?
See, for example:
viewtopic.php?t=30940
viewtopic.php?t=12369#p187322
viewtopic.php?t=4420&start=80#p68017

Mike

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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?

Post by Zom » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:11 pm

My opinion is that DO has nothing to do with 1-2-3 lives or moment-to-moment-ness.

It just shows generally how and why suffering exists, without any kind of precise details. Key to such opinion is Upanisa sutta:

"Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean — in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."
Last edited by Zom on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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