If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

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Sam Vara
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:18 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 pm
according to Buddha it is so
I challenge you to provide clear evidence of this, from suttas.
I wouldn't presume to speak for someone else (and I certainly couldn't emulate cappuccino's brevity!) but is there a case to be made for this on the basis that one formulation of wrong view is that
'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
interpreted to mean that there is no kamma and no rebirth in accordance with it?

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm

Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Zom » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:04 am

Stevenson's studies on rebirths is a physical survey only. It does not mention or has no reference to one's beliefs or even the religions of his study personel.
His studies showed that different people without belief in reincarnation or "next life" or "heaven" (whatever) were born again as human beings.

Actually what I'm trying to say is that this is a highly speculative position to assert that everybody who doesn't believe in reincarnation is born in hell or in animal world. While yes there are passages in the suttas about "wrong views", one cannot say for sure what kind of wrong views were meant by the Buddha. I guess, only specific ones, like, for example "killing is good". If one dies with such a view, then, yes, it is possible for him to appear in such a world - where everyone easily kills another - like animal realm (birth as insect, for example).

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:34 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm
Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Very well, you have successfully answered my challenge. :anjali:
I'm with Zom on this one though, what he said in the above post.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:54 am

actually wait, I don't think doubt itself is wrong view

wrong view is acting like Richard Dawkins

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:31 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm
Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Sure, but then there is also this to consider. MN 136 Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta: The Greater Analysis of Action.https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html :anjali:

The Blessed One said, "Ānanda, there are four kinds of person to be found in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view. With the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.
The next two kinds is a person who does not kill, not steal, with right view can be reborn in hell, or heaven.

Then he goes on to say there are people who believe there is only one possibility with regards to the breakup of the body, after death:
"There is the case, Ānanda, where a certain contemplative or brahman — through ardency, exertion, commitment, heedfulness, & right attention — touches the sort of concentration of awareness that, when his mind is thus concentrated, he sees with the divine eye, pure and surpassing the human, that person — the case where one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"He says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct. For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.' He says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Whoever knows this, knows rightly. Whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong.' Insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless.'
And then the Buddha goes on to disagree with the idea that there is only one possibility.
"Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct,' I allow him that. When he says, 'For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I allow him that, too. But when he says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I don't allow him that. And when he says, 'Whoever knows this, knows rightly; whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,' I don't allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,' I don't allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata's knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise.
Of course he agrees that evil action have bad results. But then goes on to say that there is no guarantee as to when those results will appear.
"In the case of the person who takes life... & holds wrong view [yet], with the breakup of the body, after death, reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world: Either earlier he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or later he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out right view. Because of that, with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world. But as for the results of taking life... holding wrong view, he will feel them either right here & now, or in the next [lifetime], or following that.
So to say one who holds wrong view, will in their next rebirth be reborn in a lower plane is not accurate because kamma does not ripen in some kind of chronological order. Although, it can but not necessarily.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:40 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:54 am
wrong view is acting like Richard Dawkins
:o

Saint Dawkins is always right, blessings be upon him. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:12 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:28 pm
Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
Don't those "actions" also include mental kamma?

Oh definitely, right view is important. My main point in saying that was the idea that a belief in and of itself, without additional supporting conditions and actions, is of limited value. Contrasted with the Judeo-Christian religions that one can go to heaven solely based on ones beliefs, it is a pretty difference.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Mkoll » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:31 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm
Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Sure, but then there is also this to consider. MN 136 Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta: The Greater Analysis of Action.https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html :anjali:

The Blessed One said, "Ānanda, there are four kinds of person to be found in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view. With the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.
The next two kinds is a person who does not kill, not steal, with right view can be reborn in hell, or heaven.

Then he goes on to say there are people who believe there is only one possibility with regards to the breakup of the body, after death:
"There is the case, Ānanda, where a certain contemplative or brahman — through ardency, exertion, commitment, heedfulness, & right attention — touches the sort of concentration of awareness that, when his mind is thus concentrated, he sees with the divine eye, pure and surpassing the human, that person — the case where one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"He says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct. For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.' He says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Whoever knows this, knows rightly. Whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong.' Insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless.'
And then the Buddha goes on to disagree with the idea that there is only one possibility.
"Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct,' I allow him that. When he says, 'For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I allow him that, too. But when he says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I don't allow him that. And when he says, 'Whoever knows this, knows rightly; whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,' I don't allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,' I don't allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata's knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise.
Of course he agrees that evil action have bad results. But then goes on to say that there is no guarantee as to when those results will appear.
"In the case of the person who takes life... & holds wrong view [yet], with the breakup of the body, after death, reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world: Either earlier he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or later he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out right view. Because of that, with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world. But as for the results of taking life... holding wrong view, he will feel them either right here & now, or in the next [lifetime], or following that.
So to say one who holds wrong view, will in their next rebirth be reborn in a lower plane is not accurate because kamma does not ripen in some kind of chronological order. Although, it can but not necessarily.
:goodpost:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by boundless » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:26 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:28 pm
dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 pm
Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
Don't those "actions" also include mental kamma?
these beings—who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views—with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.
(MN 4)
And how is one made impure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, ‘O, that what belongs to others would be mine!’ He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: ‘May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!’ He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is how one is made impure in three ways by mental action.
(AN 10.165)
Greetings,

Interesting. I think that here the problem is about the meaning of "view" (Pali: diṭṭhi).
For example:

1) Is "diṭṭhi" merely an opinion?
2) is "diṭṭhi" an (almost irremovable) convinction?


Let's take rebirth for example.
If I am in doubt about "rebirth" then of course, then according to "2" I cannot have neither "right view", nor "wrong view". I might, for example, believe that rebirth is the "more likely scenario", but this is not a really convinction. In the same way if one thinks that rebirth is the "less likely" scenario but s/he is not tatally sure about it, if "2" is true then s/he has not "wrong view", strictly speaking.

If "1" is true, then the "mere fact of believing" (I mean simply having an opinion, not a convinction) is "kammically" significant, i.e. by simply having the belief that there is rebirth one accumulates good kamma(?).

What about people who do not believe in rebirth or think that "no rebirth" is the "more likely scenario" and lead a "good" life? Do they accumulate "mixed" kamma, i.e. "good" from deeds and "bad" from views?

For example the five precepts can be followed even if the belief in rebirth is absent.

Thank you in advance!

:anjali:

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:55 am

boundless wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:26 pm
What about people who do not believe in rebirth or think that "no rebirth" is the "more likely scenario" and lead a "good" life? Do they accumulate "mixed" kamma, i.e. "good" from deeds and "bad" from views?
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:25 am

boundless wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:26 pm

Interesting. I think that here the problem is about the meaning of "view" (Pali: diṭṭhi).
For example:

1) Is "diṭṭhi" merely an opinion?
2) is "diṭṭhi" an (almost irremovable) convinction?


Let's take rebirth for example.
If I am in doubt about "rebirth" then of course, then according to "2" I cannot have neither "right view", nor "wrong view". I might, for example, believe that rebirth is the "more likely scenario", but this is not a really convinction. In the same way if one thinks that rebirth is the "less likely" scenario but s/he is not tatally sure about it, if "2" is true then s/he has not "wrong view", strictly speaking.

If "1" is true, then the "mere fact of believing" (I mean simply having an opinion, not a convinction) is "kammically" significant, i.e. by simply having the belief that there is rebirth one accumulates good kamma(?).

What about people who do not believe in rebirth or think that "no rebirth" is the "more likely scenario" and lead a "good" life? Do they accumulate "mixed" kamma, i.e. "good" from deeds and "bad" from views?

For example the five precepts can be followed even if the belief in rebirth is absent.

Thank you in advance!

:anjali:
Thanks for raising an interesting point.

I might be wrong here, but I tend to see this more as a matter of degree rather than a qualitative distinction between the two. The more important distinction is between one who knows for sure, and those who have views or opinions. Having any kind of doubt would mean that one was not convinced that all one's thoughts, words (including unspoken mental verbalisations) and actions were kamically significant; which in turn would mean that the kamma was less wholesome.
In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The closer one's views are to the truth (i.e. the truth regarding the kammic significance of what one does) then the more progress one will make.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by binocular » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:17 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:40 pm
binocular wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:22 pm
If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?
I don't see why not, either in general, or more specifically with regard to the Buddha's words on rebirth. If something is objectively true, then whether we believe in it or not does not affect its truth; and this is the case whether the process affects us or not.
I emphasized the _you_, in reference to this thought, here courtesy of Aflatun's transcription:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, it's not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
Depending on how one conceives of this _you_, one will either be able to see _oneself_ as reborn, or not.
If you think, for example, that you are your body, you will see no rebirth (but you will see a recycling of chemicals; which could, in some way, be regarded as rebirth).
Santa100's post makes this point very nicely. In suttas where the Buddha discusses different post mortem destinations (such as the Mahakammavibhanga Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) there is apparently no role for whether one believes or not as a determinant. Significantly, even wrong view (which some might say includes the denial of rebirth) apparently guarantees an unpleasant rebirth, rather then an exemption from it:
the case where one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.
This is so from a third-party, external perspective. Not from the person's own perspective.
If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, could _you_ even know that _you_ have been reborn?
Of course.
If you don't know any Khmer, would you know that you're hearing Khmer when someone spoke it around you?
In atemporal logical terms, the answer is no, in that knowledge of one's rebirth would obviously mean that one believed it. And in causal, temporal terms, it might be claimed that the Right View involving rebirth was part of the perfection of the path which led to one knowing the truth of rebirth. So without accepting it as true, one could not get to know it as so.
Exactly.
But why do you specifiy this with "atemporal logical terms"?
Last edited by binocular on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by binocular » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:22 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 pm
If I don't believe in gravity, does it still affect me?
Of course it does, but you don't know it's gravity. That's my point.

A person with no knowledge of Newtonian physics does not know what gravity is, and even as/when subject to it, does not recognize it as such, because they lack the requisite knowledge for doing so. At most, such a person has a folk understanding of gravity, probably thinking that "things fall because they're heavy"; which is an incomplete and potentially misleading understanding of gravity.
Last edited by binocular on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by binocular » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:00 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm
not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
According to cases found by Stevenson and others this is not so.
Not believing in p can be of two kinds:
1. lacking belief in p
and
2. believing that not-p.

These are two different positions.

There are people who don't believe in rebirth because they simply lack belief in rebirth; ie. they have no beliefs about rebirth whatsoever.

And then there are people who don't believe in rebirth in the sense that they believe that there is no rebirth.

I think the Buddha was probably referring to the latter when he said that people with wrong view get reborn as animals or in hell.

An example of the former are the Kalamas; the Buddha didn't tell them that they are sure to be reborn as animals or in hell, but taught them about the four assurances.

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