If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

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cappuccino
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm
not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
According to cases found by Stevenson and others this is not so.
according to Buddha it is so
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by dharmacorps »

Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by justindesilva »

Zom wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm
not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
According to cases found by Stevenson and others this is not so.
Stevenson's studies on rebirths is a physical survey only. It does not mention or has no reference to one's beliefs or even the religions of his study personel.
Yet lord budda when made a remark on anything did not leave any doubt on it. In fact one who does not believe in rebirth need not worry about morals as he has no reservations about the next life.
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Sam Vara »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 pm Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
Don't those "actions" also include mental kamma?
these beings—who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views—with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.
(MN 4)
And how is one made impure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, ‘O, that what belongs to others would be mine!’ He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: ‘May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!’ He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is how one is made impure in three ways by mental action.
(AN 10.165)
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 pm according to Buddha it is so
I challenge you to provide clear evidence of this, from suttas.
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Sam Vara »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 pm according to Buddha it is so
I challenge you to provide clear evidence of this, from suttas.
I wouldn't presume to speak for someone else (and I certainly couldn't emulate cappuccino's brevity!) but is there a case to be made for this on the basis that one formulation of wrong view is that
'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
interpreted to mean that there is no kamma and no rebirth in accordance with it?
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino »

Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Zom »

Stevenson's studies on rebirths is a physical survey only. It does not mention or has no reference to one's beliefs or even the religions of his study personel.
His studies showed that different people without belief in reincarnation or "next life" or "heaven" (whatever) were born again as human beings.

Actually what I'm trying to say is that this is a highly speculative position to assert that everybody who doesn't believe in reincarnation is born in hell or in animal world. While yes there are passages in the suttas about "wrong views", one cannot say for sure what kind of wrong views were meant by the Buddha. I guess, only specific ones, like, for example "killing is good". If one dies with such a view, then, yes, it is possible for him to appear in such a world - where everyone easily kills another - like animal realm (birth as insect, for example).
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Very well, you have successfully answered my challenge. :anjali:
I'm with Zom on this one though, what he said in the above post.
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino »

actually wait, I don't think doubt itself is wrong view

wrong view is acting like Richard Dawkins
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by seeker242 »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Sure, but then there is also this to consider. MN 136 Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta: The Greater Analysis of Action.https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html :anjali:

The Blessed One said, "Ānanda, there are four kinds of person to be found in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view. With the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.
The next two kinds is a person who does not kill, not steal, with right view can be reborn in hell, or heaven.

Then he goes on to say there are people who believe there is only one possibility with regards to the breakup of the body, after death:
"There is the case, Ānanda, where a certain contemplative or brahman — through ardency, exertion, commitment, heedfulness, & right attention — touches the sort of concentration of awareness that, when his mind is thus concentrated, he sees with the divine eye, pure and surpassing the human, that person — the case where one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"He says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct. For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.' He says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Whoever knows this, knows rightly. Whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong.' Insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless.'
And then the Buddha goes on to disagree with the idea that there is only one possibility.
"Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct,' I allow him that. When he says, 'For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I allow him that, too. But when he says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I don't allow him that. And when he says, 'Whoever knows this, knows rightly; whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,' I don't allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,' I don't allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata's knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise.
Of course he agrees that evil action have bad results. But then goes on to say that there is no guarantee as to when those results will appear.
"In the case of the person who takes life... & holds wrong view [yet], with the breakup of the body, after death, reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world: Either earlier he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or later he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out right view. Because of that, with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world. But as for the results of taking life... holding wrong view, he will feel them either right here & now, or in the next [lifetime], or following that.
So to say one who holds wrong view, will in their next rebirth be reborn in a lower plane is not accurate because kamma does not ripen in some kind of chronological order. Although, it can but not necessarily.
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:54 am wrong view is acting like Richard Dawkins
:o

Saint Dawkins is always right, blessings be upon him. :tongue:
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by dharmacorps »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:28 pm Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
Don't those "actions" also include mental kamma?

Oh definitely, right view is important. My main point in saying that was the idea that a belief in and of itself, without additional supporting conditions and actions, is of limited value. Contrasted with the Judeo-Christian religions that one can go to heaven solely based on ones beliefs, it is a pretty difference.
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Mkoll »

seeker242 wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:31 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:37 pm Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Sure, but then there is also this to consider. MN 136 Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta: The Greater Analysis of Action.https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html :anjali:

The Blessed One said, "Ānanda, there are four kinds of person to be found in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view. With the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.
The next two kinds is a person who does not kill, not steal, with right view can be reborn in hell, or heaven.

Then he goes on to say there are people who believe there is only one possibility with regards to the breakup of the body, after death:
"There is the case, Ānanda, where a certain contemplative or brahman — through ardency, exertion, commitment, heedfulness, & right attention — touches the sort of concentration of awareness that, when his mind is thus concentrated, he sees with the divine eye, pure and surpassing the human, that person — the case where one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

"He says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct. For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.' He says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Whoever knows this, knows rightly. Whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong.' Insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless.'
And then the Buddha goes on to disagree with the idea that there is only one possibility.
"Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, 'So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct,' I allow him that. When he says, 'For I saw the case where a person who took life... & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I allow him that, too. But when he says, 'Anyone who takes life... & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,' I don't allow him that. And when he says, 'Whoever knows this, knows rightly; whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,' I don't allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: 'Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,' I don't allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata's knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise.
Of course he agrees that evil action have bad results. But then goes on to say that there is no guarantee as to when those results will appear.
"In the case of the person who takes life... & holds wrong view [yet], with the breakup of the body, after death, reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world: Either earlier he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or later he performed fine action that is to be felt as pleasant, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out right view. Because of that, with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world. But as for the results of taking life... holding wrong view, he will feel them either right here & now, or in the next [lifetime], or following that.
So to say one who holds wrong view, will in their next rebirth be reborn in a lower plane is not accurate because kamma does not ripen in some kind of chronological order. Although, it can but not necessarily.
:goodpost:
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by boundless »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:28 pm
dharmacorps wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 pm Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
Don't those "actions" also include mental kamma?
these beings—who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views—with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.
(MN 4)
And how is one made impure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, ‘O, that what belongs to others would be mine!’ He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: ‘May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!’ He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is how one is made impure in three ways by mental action.
(AN 10.165)
Greetings,

Interesting. I think that here the problem is about the meaning of "view" (Pali: diṭṭhi).
For example:

1) Is "diṭṭhi" merely an opinion?
2) is "diṭṭhi" an (almost irremovable) convinction?


Let's take rebirth for example.
If I am in doubt about "rebirth" then of course, then according to "2" I cannot have neither "right view", nor "wrong view". I might, for example, believe that rebirth is the "more likely scenario", but this is not a really convinction. In the same way if one thinks that rebirth is the "less likely" scenario but s/he is not tatally sure about it, if "2" is true then s/he has not "wrong view", strictly speaking.

If "1" is true, then the "mere fact of believing" (I mean simply having an opinion, not a convinction) is "kammically" significant, i.e. by simply having the belief that there is rebirth one accumulates good kamma(?).

What about people who do not believe in rebirth or think that "no rebirth" is the "more likely scenario" and lead a "good" life? Do they accumulate "mixed" kamma, i.e. "good" from deeds and "bad" from views?

For example the five precepts can be followed even if the belief in rebirth is absent.

Thank you in advance!

:anjali:
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