If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

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binocular
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If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Greetings.


Do consider these two questions:

If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, could _you_ even know that _you_ have been reborn?



Thank you.

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cappuccino
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:07 pm

children are very much themselves, from a young age

their tastes, their differences, are easily explained

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:13 pm

yes you will be reborn because it is fact
not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
and you may not know about rebirth but you will feel suffering. ignorance yields suffering, whereas wisdom yields not suffering
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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dharmacorps
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:18 pm

This question is loaded with the primarily Abrahamic religious idea that "belief" somehow is involved in your destination after death.

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binocular
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:23 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:18 pm
This question is loaded with the primarily Abrahamic religious idea that "belief" somehow is involved in your destination after death.
Not at all.
If you don't believe in rebirth, and then you get reborn: How are you going to recognize that you have been reborn, if you don't believe in rebirth?


Edit:
What is the reason that people don't remember their past lives?
A good candidate for that seems to be the proposition that they don't believe in rebirth; and so they can't recognize rebirth when it's happening.
Another good candidate is the proposition that they identify with their bodies, thinking that their bodies are who they really are, and that if something is to be reborn, it would be their bodies. But since (according to rebirth doctrines) it is not the body that gets reborn, such people who identify with their bodies see no rebirth.
Last edited by binocular on Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm

in heaven and hell, those people remember their previous life

obviously in order to reflect on the reason for being there

perkele
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by perkele » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:37 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm
in heaven and hell, those people remember their previous life
In many stories from the Pali canon that is the case. But not always.
There is the case of "the Great Brahma" who was the first who came to inhabit the empty Brahma heaven after the "rebirth" of the "world system", and hence was deluded into believing he was the creator of all. Maybe there were other cases as well. But I don't remember atm.
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm
obviously in order to reflect on the reason for being there
"In order to"? So there is some higher power, like an almighty god, who directs these things for some intended purpose?

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cappuccino
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:41 pm

everything seems set up and intentional

the planes of existence for example

santa100
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by santa100 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:47 pm

Simple analogy, it's basic knowlege now that one's actually moving even when s/he's not moving a muscle (ie you're moving along with the earth's rotation). But not too long ago, everyone didn't believe that. Now rebirth is a bit different since there's yet concrete scientific evidences, but the logic's still the same, if one's already closed his mind to any possibility, s/he's simply not gonna see it. That doesn't mean the possibility is an impossibility and one day it'll become basic knowledge just like the earth's rotation.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by perkele » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:53 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:41 pm
everything seems set up and intentional

otherwise a Buddha is a lucky accident

I don't think it's accidental
latte macchiato wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:41 pm
the planes of existence for example
Beings are heirs to their kamma (intention), according to the Dhamma. What you say seems to accord with that.
However, it seemed that your first statement alluded to some "purpose" of certain planes of existence, directed by a being outside of samsara. Or that's how I understood it. But I'm not sure if I understood you.

Anyway, this is off-topic. I apologize.

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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:55 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:22 pm
Greetings.


Do consider these two questions:

If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, could _you_ even know that _you_ have been reborn?



Thank you.
Whether one believes or not rebirth cannot be denied.
We humans who have not got in to any form of samadhi ( higher mental concentration) are blind with ignorance to see and feel of their former rebirths. With extreme higher forms of meditation , an arya sravaka achieves a mental state called pubbe nivasa anussati gnana , which enables them to know their former births. Lord budda had this form of vision and used it to advice and explain the necessary damma.
Even without this type of vision certain people remembered their former (single ) births and had been recorded under investigation.

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cappuccino
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:01 pm

our time is the dark age

it's a dark age because
people are as far away from god as possible

it is said

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Zom
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Zom » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm

not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
According to cases found by Stevenson and others this is not so.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:40 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:22 pm
If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?
I don't see why not, either in general, or more specifically with regard to the Buddha's words on rebirth. If something is objectively true, then whether we believe in it or not does not affect its truth; and this is the case whether the process affects us or not. A person who doesn't believe in death doesn't thereby make themselves immortal. Santa100's post makes this point very nicely. In suttas where the Buddha discusses different post mortem destinations (such as the Mahakammavibhanga Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) there is apparently no role for whether one believes or not as a determinant. Significantly, even wrong view (which some might say includes the denial of rebirth) apparently guarantees an unpleasant rebirth, rather then an exemption from it:
the case where one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.
If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, could _you_ even know that _you_ have been reborn?
In atemporal logical terms, the answer is no, in that knowledge of one's rebirth would obviously mean that one believed it. And in causal, temporal terms, it might be claimed that the Right View involving rebirth was part of the perfection of the path which led to one knowing the truth of rebirth. So without accepting it as true, one could not get to know it as so.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 pm

If I don't believe in gravity, does it still affect me?
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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cappuccino
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm
not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
According to cases found by Stevenson and others this is not so.
according to Buddha it is so

dharmacorps
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 pm

Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.

justindesilva
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:07 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 pm
not believing in rebirth is wrong view, which leads to hell or animal womb
According to cases found by Stevenson and others this is not so.
Stevenson's studies on rebirths is a physical survey only. It does not mention or has no reference to one's beliefs or even the religions of his study personel.
Yet lord budda when made a remark on anything did not leave any doubt on it. In fact one who does not believe in rebirth need not worry about morals as he has no reservations about the next life.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:28 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 pm
Beliefs don't dictate where you are reborn. Actions do.
Don't those "actions" also include mental kamma?
these beings—who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views—with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.
(MN 4)
And how is one made impure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, ‘O, that what belongs to others would be mine!’ He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: ‘May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!’ He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is how one is made impure in three ways by mental action.
(AN 10.165)

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: If _you_ don't believe in rebirth, can _you_ be reborn?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 pm
according to Buddha it is so
I challenge you to provide clear evidence of this, from suttas.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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