Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

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cookiemonster
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Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by cookiemonster » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:38 pm

I've heard it both ways ... that pacceka-Buddhas "can't teach" or "don't teach", which is why they don't establish a Sangha.

Are there any Pali canonical sources which address this topic?

At this point, I imagine that they "don't teach". That seems to make more sense to me than the idea that they can't teach, since they've supposedly developed the paramis to a much greater extent than ordinary Arahants, yet Arahants teach.

It seems like our sammma-sam-Buddha Gotama, immediately after his Awakening, contemplated the option of choosing to not teach and become a pacceka-Buddha? Or, maybe those Awakened Ones who achieve pacceka-Buddhahood are born and realize Awakening in a time of spiritual blindness where the Dhamma could not be comprehended by others, so they don't bother to teach?

Virgo
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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by Virgo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:25 pm

I am not 100% sure and cannot provide any sources but I remember being told that many do teach some disciples. They do not have the capacity, or inclination (or maybe it is just the kamma of the society they are in) to set forth the Wheel of Dhamma the way a Buddha does.

Kevin

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by santa100 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:39 pm

cookiemonster wrote:maybe those Awakened Ones who achieve pacceka-Buddhahood are born and realize Awakening in a time of spiritual blindness where the Dhamma could not be comprehended by others
Like any conditioned phenomena, the Dhamma will eventually be subjected to the law of impermanence and disappear until a future Sammāsambuddha re-discovers it again like Gotama Buddha. Ven. Bodhi's note from "Middle Length Discourses":
Paccekabuddha: one attains enlightenment and liberation on his own, without relying on the Dhamma taught by the Buddha, but not capable of teaching others and establishing the Dispensation. They arise only at a time when no Dispensation of a Buddha exists in the world.

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:33 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:38 pm
Are there any Pali canonical sources which address this topic?
No, you need to go to the commentaries. This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Suttanipāta Atthakathā. I've added the Pali:
Buddhā sayañca bujjhanti, pare ca bodhenti. Paccekabuddhā sayameva bujjhanti, na pare bodhenti.
Buddhas attain enlightenment themselves and enlighten others. Paccekabuddhas attain enlightenment themselves but do not enlighten others.

Attharasameva paṭivijjhanti, na dhammarasaṃ. Na hi te lokuttaradhammaṃ paññattiṃ āropetvā desetuṃ sakkonti.
They penetrate the taste of the goal only but not the taste of the Dhamma. For they are not able to apply conceptual description to the world-transcending Dhamma and thereby teach it.

Mūgena diṭṭhasupino viya vanacarakena nagare sāyitabyañjanaraso viya ca nesaṃ dhammābhisamayo hoti.
Their breakthrough to the Dhamma is like a dumb person trying to describe the things he has seen in a dream or like a country-dweller trying to describe the dishes he tasted in the city.

Sabbaṃ iddhisamāpattipaṭisambhidāpabhedaṃ pāpuṇanti. Guṇavisiṭṭhatāya buddhānaṃ heṭṭhā sāvakānaṃ upari honti.
They achieve all the psychic powers, meditative attainments, and analytical knowledges. Their excellent qualities are inferior to those of the buddhas but superior to those of disciples.

Aññe pabbājetvā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhāpenti.
They give others the going forth and train them in proper behavior.
This is according to the Suttanipāta Commentary in the Sinhalese and PTS editions. But the Burmese edition, along with all editions of the parallel passage in the Apadāna commentary, says "Na aññe..."; i.e., that paccekabuddhas do not give others the going forth and train them in proper behavior.

Bhikkhu Bodhi remarks:

“Since in several of the background stories to follow, paccekabuddhas do give the going forth and basic instructions to their pupils, Ce and Ee must be correct here. The stories show that the common conception of the paccekabuddha as “a silent buddha” and as one who lives in complete solitude is mistaken.”

“Cittasallekho kātabbo, vosānaṃ nāpajjitabban” ti iminā uddesena uposathaṃ karonti, ajja uposathoti vacanamattena vā, uposathaṃ karontā ca gandhamādane mañjūsakarukkhamūle ratanamāḷe sannipatitvā karontīti.
They observe the uposatha with this advice: “One should practice effacement of the mind and should not come to a stop,” or else they merely say: “Today is the uposatha.” When observing the uposatha, they do so after they have assembled on the Jewel Terrace at the foot of the Mañjūsaka tree on Mount Gandhamādana.

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:27 am

there is a paccekabuddha in the suttas who is a leper, Tagarasikhin
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
the sammāsambuddha is endowed with extremely good kamma which makes him beautiful and his voice pleasing and he is born into a royal family. could it be this kamma (see DN 30) makes his dhamma more appealing to a wider audience? or is the distinction between pbuddha and ssbuddha that the former lacks the miracle of teaching, perhaps in the same way some sāvaka arahants develop psychic power and some dont. [here i go off to find a sutta] let us take a look at the following:

“So too, bhikkhus, so long as a Tathagata has not arisen in the world, an Arahant, a Perfectly Enlightened One, for just so long there is no manifestation of great light and radiance, but then blinding darkness prevails, a dense mass of darkness; for just so long there is no explaining, teaching, proclaiming, establishing, disclosing, analysing, or elucidating of the Four Noble Truths.

“But, bhikkhus, when a Tathagata arises in the world, an Arahant, a Perfectly Enlightened One, then there is the manifestation of great light and radiance; then no blinding darkness prevails, no dense mass of darkness; then there is the explaining, teaching, proclaiming, establishing, disclosing, analysing, and elucidating of the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.38/en/bodhi

i anticipate someone possibly sharing the saying of buddha that he was initially inclined not to teach, but from my reading of this sutta i gather that the conditions for a "perfectly enlightened" buddha are such that they always teach
ie, if they do not teach, they are not a ssbuddha
furthermore, i see "perfectly enlightened" as evidence that a pbuddha is not perfectly enlightened, only they have attained nibbāna in a world without dhamma, and their lacking the miracle of teaching is a plausible explanation
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by chownah » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 am

I think the distinction is whether they CAN teach and not whether they DO teach.

Knowledge of a subject does not guarantee that one can adequately teach the subject.....unexcelled teaching depends on knowledge of a subject AND knowledge of the student AND knowledge of pedagogic technique. A thatagatha has all of these kinds of knowledge while pachinko buddhas evidently do not.
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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by Things » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:34 am

Pacceka buddhas some times guide the people to do good and refrain from bad, there are instances where a pacceka bodhisathwa attained enlightnment and became a pacceka buddha with the assistance of another pacceka buddha.

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:08 pm

devadatta will be a paccekabuddha after his aeon or so in hell, because he took refuge at the end of his life
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

cookiemonster
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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by cookiemonster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:17 pm

Thank you all for your responses. :anjali:

cookiemonster
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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by cookiemonster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:20 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 am
I think the distinction is whether they CAN teach and not whether they DO teach.

Knowledge of a subject does not guarantee that one can adequately teach the subject.....unexcelled teaching depends on knowledge of a subject AND knowledge of the student AND knowledge of pedagogic technique. A thatagatha has all of these kinds of knowledge while pachinko buddhas evidently do not.
chownah
Yet many Arahants supposedly teach like Ven. Sariputta, and - if I recall correctly - somewhere in the canon is taught that one Pacceka-Buddhas is worth more (more advanced/developed?) than 100 ordinary Arahants, just as one Samma-Sam-Buddha is worth more than 100 Pacceka-Buddhas ... or something along those lines ...

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:25 pm

Sariputta merely repeated the teaching given to him.
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:43 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:25 pm
Sariputta merely repeated the teaching given to him.
Sariputta wrote: “Lord, it’s not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One ...
... I have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment. I have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction… persistence… mindfulness… concentration… discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the deathless, has the deathless as its final end & consummation.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN48_44.html
:heart:
Mike

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:33 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:43 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:25 pm
Sariputta merely repeated the teaching given to him.
Sariputta wrote: “Lord, it’s not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One ...
... I have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment. I have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction… persistence… mindfulness… concentration… discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the deathless, has the deathless as its final end & consummation.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN48_44.html
of course
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

chownah
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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by chownah » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:55 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:20 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 am
I think the distinction is whether they CAN teach and not whether they DO teach.

Knowledge of a subject does not guarantee that one can adequately teach the subject.....unexcelled teaching depends on knowledge of a subject AND knowledge of the student AND knowledge of pedagogic technique. A thatagatha has all of these kinds of knowledge while pachinko buddhas evidently do not.
chownah
Yet many Arahants supposedly teach like Ven. Sariputta, and - if I recall correctly - somewhere in the canon is taught that one Pacceka-Buddhas is worth more (more advanced/developed?) than 100 ordinary Arahants, just as one Samma-Sam-Buddha is worth more than 100 Pacceka-Buddhas ... or something along those lines ...
What you say is very interesting. I hope that someone can bring the canonical reference you mention so that we can compare what you have said with exactly what the canon contains.
chownah

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Re: Paccekabuddhas ... can't teach? or don't teach?

Post by Virgo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:27 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:33 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:38 pm
Are there any Pali canonical sources which address this topic?
No, you need to go to the commentaries. This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Suttanipāta Atthakathā. I've added the Pali:
Buddhā sayañca bujjhanti, pare ca bodhenti. Paccekabuddhā sayameva bujjhanti, na pare bodhenti.
Buddhas attain enlightenment themselves and enlighten others. Paccekabuddhas attain enlightenment themselves but do not enlighten others.

Attharasameva paṭivijjhanti, na dhammarasaṃ. Na hi te lokuttaradhammaṃ paññattiṃ āropetvā desetuṃ sakkonti.
They penetrate the taste of the goal only but not the taste of the Dhamma. For they are not able to apply conceptual description to the world-transcending Dhamma and thereby teach it.

Mūgena diṭṭhasupino viya vanacarakena nagare sāyitabyañjanaraso viya ca nesaṃ dhammābhisamayo hoti.
Their breakthrough to the Dhamma is like a dumb person trying to describe the things he has seen in a dream or like a country-dweller trying to describe the dishes he tasted in the city.

Sabbaṃ iddhisamāpattipaṭisambhidāpabhedaṃ pāpuṇanti. Guṇavisiṭṭhatāya buddhānaṃ heṭṭhā sāvakānaṃ upari honti.
They achieve all the psychic powers, meditative attainments, and analytical knowledges. Their excellent qualities are inferior to those of the buddhas but superior to those of disciples.

Aññe pabbājetvā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhāpenti.
They give others the going forth and train them in proper behavior.
This is according to the Suttanipāta Commentary in the Sinhalese and PTS editions. But the Burmese edition, along with all editions of the parallel passage in the Apadāna commentary, says "Na aññe..."; i.e., that paccekabuddhas do not give others the going forth and train them in proper behavior.

Bhikkhu Bodhi remarks:

“Since in several of the background stories to follow, paccekabuddhas do give the going forth and basic instructions to their pupils, Ce and Ee must be correct here. The stories show that the common conception of the paccekabuddha as “a silent buddha” and as one who lives in complete solitude is mistaken.”

“Cittasallekho kātabbo, vosānaṃ nāpajjitabban” ti iminā uddesena uposathaṃ karonti, ajja uposathoti vacanamattena vā, uposathaṃ karontā ca gandhamādane mañjūsakarukkhamūle ratanamāḷe sannipatitvā karontīti.
They observe the uposatha with this advice: “One should practice effacement of the mind and should not come to a stop,” or else they merely say: “Today is the uposatha.” When observing the uposatha, they do so after they have assembled on the Jewel Terrace at the foot of the Mañjūsaka tree on Mount Gandhamādana.
Great post Bhante!

Kevin

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