Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

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Zom
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Re: Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

Post by Zom » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:54 pm

Exactly, that's why I was surprised by the passage in the book. MN44 says that the five aggregates of clinging are sakkāya (MN 44.2). Then it explain sakkāya-ditthi as 20 wrong views in regard to these aggregates of clinging, all of which relating them in some way or other to a self (MN44.7). The first part, the definition of sakkāya is also found in the book by Sayadaw U Pandita (before the bolded sentence above in OP), but the definition of sakkāya-ditthi seems very different (given in OP in bold). That definition seems to say that when you see things as they really are, namely just nothing more than just distinct mind and matter, that that is sakkāya-ditthi and only when it gets glued together with atta-ditthi does it become wrong view of self
“Then a bhikkhu might say: ‘In such and such a residence one elder bhikkhu is dwelling who is learned, an heir to the heritage, an expert on the Dhamma, an expert on the discipline, an expert on the outlines. In the presence of that elder I heard this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly learned by that elder.’ Thus you should discard it".

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Re: Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:12 pm

Ruud wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:58 am
Anyway, to come back to my original question, after having listened to the recording again and with the discussion of this thread in the back of my mind, I really am more and more convinced the specific definition is probably a editing error confusing/mixing the discussion on sakkāya-ditthi with nama-rupapariccheda-nana. One blatant clue is actually the name of this and the next recording, namely ‘knowing mind and matter’ and ‘knowing cause and effect’....
Yes, it does seem like a simple editing error. It would almost make sense if the period was moved:
But if there’s no clear seeing these aggregates will be perceived as a composite, glued together with atta-ditthi, self-view, sa-kāya-ditthi.
The [non-sakayaditthi] view that sees nothing more than distinct mind and matter, is not a mere Buddhist doctrine; rather, it is a direct perception, born of a direct examination.
So perhaps a few words got dropped.

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Mike

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Re: Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

Post by Ruud » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:45 am

Zom wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:54 pm
“Then a bhikkhu might say: ‘In such and such a residence one elder bhikkhu is dwelling who is learned, an heir to the heritage, an expert on the Dhamma, an expert on the discipline, an expert on the outlines. In the presence of that elder I heard this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly learned by that elder.’ Thus you should discard it".
I definitely agree. Why I was surprised was because the recording didn’t reflect what was in the book and it seemed, having read from this teacher before, odd for him to say something like that. So my question was part of the ‘checking’ that the Buddha talks about. And if it is an editing error, as it looks like to me now, then there is no need to say that ‘it has been badly learned by that elder’.
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:12 pm
Yes, it does seem like a simple editing error. It would almost make sense if the period was moved:
But if there’s no clear seeing these aggregates will be perceived as a composite, glued together with atta-ditthi, self-view, sa-kāya-ditthi.
The [non-sakayaditthi] view that sees nothing more than distinct mind and matter, is not a mere Buddhist doctrine; rather, it is a direct perception, born of a direct examination.
So perhaps a few words got dropped.

:heart:
Mike
Yes, I think so too. Maybe I should see if Wisdom has a way to report errors, or at least let the editor check, so that future printings might be corrected...
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Re: Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

Post by Ruud » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:20 am

I send a message to Wisdom and the editor of he book (Kate Wheeler) replied saying that indeed the definition of sakkaya-ditthi as quoted in he OP was an error in the book.
Indeed sa kaya ditthi is the wrong view of mind and matter: that they are one thing and owned by oneself.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Re: Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 pm

Thanks. I always tell my students not to believe everything they read in textbooks, because there can always be typos. In fact, a story I heard some time ago was about a professor I knew well (I heard this from a graduate student) that one of the assignments in one of his graduate courses was to find the typos in the text book... :tongue:

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Mike

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Re: Sakkāya-ditthi: view that sees distinct mind and matter?

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:00 am

Ruud wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:20 am
I send a message to Wisdom and the editor of he book (Kate Wheeler) replied saying that indeed the definition of sakkaya-ditthi as quoted in he OP was an error in the book.
Indeed sa kaya ditthi is the wrong view of mind and matter: that they are one thing and owned by oneself.
Good work Ruud! Your careful reading, discernment, and follow-through in contacting the editor will benefit many people and in their behalf I thank you....good work!

Thanks again and keep up your great work,
chownah

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