What is the proper method for reading lists in suttas?

[binocular]

Greetings.


In the suttas, there are often lists of items.
These lists can sometimes be difficult to understand, as they don't always state in what succession the listed items apply or how the items are to be understood as relating to eachother.

MN 20, for example, makes it clear in which order the listed items are to be applied, e.g.:

"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, [then] he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts [...]

But how about, for example, AN 5.162, about subdoing hatred? In which order are these items to be practiced? All of them in sequence, all of them at once, one of them by choice, ...?

Or take, for example, the Maha-mangala sutta. All the mentioned items are said to be "the highest protection". But logically, there can be only one "highest protection". So which one of the listed items is the highest protection?


I presume there are methods for reading these lists properly. Does anyone know any teachings about this that they can share?

Thank you.

[User1249x]

My impression is that generally the first and the last items are the of paricular importance or that they somehow stand out, unless otherwise specified.

ie the Maha-mangala Sutta;
starts with admirable friendship

Not consorting with fools,
consorting with the wise,
paying homage to those worthy of homage:
This is the highest protection.

of which it has been proclaimed

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

Ending with

Everywhere undefeated
when acting in this way,
people go everywhere in well-being:
This is their highest protection.

[DooDoot]

As a general principle, the suttas say:

"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'

"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'

AN 5.159

For example, the following passage is a classic step-by-step sequence of cause & effect:

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

MN 117 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

However, unlike MN 117 above, the two sutta examples below (MN 20 & AN 5.161) are not so much about the arising of the path factors but about how to subdue hindrances & defilements. Therefore, the impression is they start with the most refined method & move to the most coarse method. This would appear to be the case because a more skilled practitioner would only need to use the most refined method requiring the least effort.

MN 20, for example, makes it clear in which order the listed items are to be applied, e.g.:
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, [then] he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts [...]

The above is merely a translation. More realistically, it should say:

"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is [attempting to] attend to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, [then] he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those [unskillful] thoughts [...]

AN 5.162, about subdoing hatred? In which order are these items to be practiced? All of them in sequence, all of them at once, one of them by choice, ...?

AN 5.161 says there are five methods therefore one method can be chosen if it, alone, works. However, a practitioner should be skilled in all five methods. However, as previously said, the first method is the most dhammic because metta is more skilled than equanimity. A skilled practitioner would primarily use the 1st method of metta; as taught in the AN, where the Buddha said: "The monk that can generate metta in a finger snap is the truly developed jhana monk" (AN 1.53 to 55).

The five methods offered in AN 5.161 is different to the 8 fold path, which is one method with 8 factors operating together.

As for Maha-mangala sutta, this is similar to the 8 fold path, therefore it is taught in the classic way of fruition. As for "the highest protection", this term appears to apply to the various situations or categories mentioned. For example, to have a wise rather the foolish teacher is the highest blessing; or to have a good rather than bad family is the highest blessing, etc. While ultimately, the final blessing is obviously the highest blessing, each description is the highest blessing in its category. Its like saying: "Having a BMW car is the highest blessing [pertaining to cars]; having a Bosch dishwasher is the highest blessing [pertaining to dishwashers]; etc".

I presume there are methods for reading these lists properly. Does anyone know any teachings about this that they can share?

I would guess there are only generally guidelines, as mentioned at the start of the post. Also, not to take the sentence structure of a translation literally but focus on the key words. There are many passages in the Pali that translators translate in different order.

[santa100]

I presume there are methods for reading these lists properly. Does anyone know any teachings about this that they can share?

The Dhamma is kinda like martial arts, one can find out whether his method of learning is done "properly" only after applying it in real life situation and see the result for oneself. For ex: in AN 5.161, the Buddha taught 5 methods. One should apply that in real life and find out for oneself. Maybe good will is all that's needed, maybe it'd also need compassion, or equanimity,... or all 5 of them. The combo. doesn't really matter. What matters is the end goal, which was clearly stated at the very first paragraph: "when hatred arises, s/he should wipe it out completely". Similarly for Sn 2.4, it might take just one or it might take all of them, as long as that aim about "highest protection" has been tested out and verified in real life situations.

[Dhammanando]

In the suttas, there are often lists of items.
These lists can sometimes be difficult to understand, as they don't always state in what succession the listed items apply or how the items are to be understood as relating to each other.

[...]

I presume there are methods for reading these lists properly. Does anyone know any teachings about this that they can share?

Suppose you were tasked with drawing up a list of a number of items and the particular order in which they were to be listed didn't really matter. How would you go about it? Instinctively what you would probably do is to list them in the order that sounded most natural and pleasing to the ear. Each language has its own (usually unstated) conventions governing this. English, for example, is an example of a "waning syllables language", which means that a native speaker will start by listing the items whose names have the most syllables and then gradually work down to those which have the least. For example, if you were listing the names of adherents of the world's religions, it would sound most euphonic if you put the Zarathustrians and Spiritualists first and the Sikhs, Jains and Jews last.

Pali and Sanskrit, on the other hand, follow the waxing syllables principle: begin with the shortest words and then gradually move up to the longest.

So, any time the Buddha lists a number of items, observe whether or not the list's sequence is waxing syllables-compliant. If it is, then it tells you that the order is probably of no doctrinal significance. For example:

nacca-gīta-vādita-visūkadassana
"dancing, singing, music, unseemly shows."

mālā-gandha-vilepana-dhāraṇa-maṇḍana-vibhūsanaṭṭhānā
"garlands, perfumes, cosmetics, ornaments and adornments."

āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo
"worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation."

But if the Buddha's list is non-compliant then it tells us that the order of items probably matters. For example, it might mean that they constitute a progressive sequence of development, as with the Maṅgalasutta's thirty-eight blessings or the seven bojjhaṅgas:

sati, dhammavicayo, viriyo, pīti, passaddhi, samādhi, upekkhā
"Mindfulness, investigation of dhammas, energy, zest, calm, concentration, equanimity."

Or the factors of the Eightfold Path.

One caveat, however, is that the above only applies when the items are listed in one and the same sentence or paragraph. If they are listed in separate paragraphs, as is often the case with the lists in the Aṅguttara Nikāya, then all bets are off.

Attached files:

Ven. Anālayo, Waxing Syllables (entry in the Encyclopedia of Buddhism, ed. G.P. Malalasekera)

Mark Allon, The Oral Composition and Transmission of Early Buddhist Texts (in Indian Insights: Buddhism, Brahmanism and Bhakti, ed. Peter Connolly and Sue Hamilton)

Analayo, Waxing Syllables.pdf

(328.6 KiB) Downloaded 65 times

Mark Allon, Oral Composition.pdf

(461.13 KiB) Downloaded 42 times

[Mkoll]

Thank you Bhante.

[binocular]

Venerable, thank you for your reply!

Suppose you were tasked with drawing up a list of a number of items and the particular order in which they were to be listed didn't really matter. How would you go about it?

As I would list them alphabetically, I didn't think of listing them as "most natural and pleasing to the ear".

Pali and Sanskrit, on the other hand, follow the waxing syllables principle: begin with the shortest words and then gradually move up to the longest.

So, any time the Buddha lists a number of items, observe whether or not the list's sequence is waxing syllables-compliant. If it is, then it tells you that the order is probably of no doctrinal significance. For example:
/.../
But if the Buddha's list is non-compliant then it tells us that the order of items probably matters. For example, it might mean that they constitute a progressive sequence of development, as with the Maṅgalasutta's thirty-eight blessings or the seven bojjhaṅgas:
/.../
Or the factors of the Eightfold Path.

For this, we of course have to read the suttas in Pali!

Ven. Anālayo, Waxing Syllables (entry in the Encyclopedia of Buddhism, ed. G.P. Malalasekera)

Mark Allon, The Oral Composition and Transmission of Early Buddhist Texts (in Indian Insights: Buddhism, Brahmanism and Bhakti, ed. Peter Connolly and Sue Hamilton)

Thank you!
As an aside, in my native language, Slovene, there's also a principle of avoiding awkward consonant clusters that could occur when listing items. For example, we say as a fixed phrase "noč in dan" ('night and day'), and not "dan in noč" (as that would render three n in close proximity).