Preciousness of human life

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by cappuccino » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:13 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:52 am
may it never happen again.
the chance of it happening at all is very rare

I meant, it rarely happens twice in a row

human life is lightning

James Tan
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by James Tan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:18 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:27 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:09 am
Hi ,

We as a human being can be certain what sufferings we are going through , but , we can't be certain how and what kind of suffering the animals is going through .

I heard someone with psychic said sometimes if the animals being ran over by cars , they will repeatedly having the experience ie continuously being run over is due to their kamma until the force exhausted and then take their following course accordingly .

By comparison , living as a deva is far more superior than human being , therefore , I supposed human being realm is less suffering compare to animal planes .
We cannot be certain if they are suffering but prima facie examination of an ant's life shows no suffering. Do ant's have a sales target to meet .. maybe .. but the word maybe cuts both ways .. maybe ants are immensely happy

I would place very little value in what psychics said. We are having a rational discussion.

Existence of devas is unproven and therefore invalid.

Please understand I am not trashing the Buddha's teachings .. just clearing up few points.

:namaste:
Understanding occurs with accumulation of knowledges , but acquiring knowledge has it limits ! Sometimes , we could be wrong even though we feel certain about it .
Rationalization has its limitations . Therefore , I am afraid it may be not a Valid Tool to explore something not in its capability .
A rational mind is a limited mind . Well , I don't understand many things in this world but am learning . Unfortunately , the limited mind can't understand something outside it scope . You are not in animal realms therefore you can't be certain . However , I respect your decision of your choice to become an ant or whatsoever .
:reading:

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cappuccino
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by cappuccino » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:24 am

being human is the five precepts

if a human is really an angel, angelic rebirth will occur

binocular
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:40 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:26 am
I have no problem in being a part of samsara if I am not human. If I am a rat, crocodile, dog, lion, hyena .. where is the suffering?
/.../
Where is the animal equivalent of above?
/.../
Will you have lot of problem being a hippo or crocodile .. or shark .. or amoeba .. or anteater?
In the spirit of your request not to provide suttas, I suggest you read Thomas Nagel's seminal essay What is it like to be a bat?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Meezer77
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by Meezer77 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:48 am
I was thinking interpreting Buddha's teachings in terms of one life would be beneficial.

I cannot choose if I am an ant or human or deva. But since I am a human .. try to be virtuous and hope .. next life is as an ant or deva but not human.

That is the best possible course?

:namaste:
Ants don't have it that great. They have to carry huge loads all the time and are really overworked. Don't think they have a union neither 😓😓😓

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Sam Vara
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:27 pm

Meezer77 wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 am
Ants don't have it that great. They have to carry huge loads all the time and are really overworked. Don't think they have a union neither 😓😓😓
Here's one that's having a particularly hard time of it now:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/5 ... rive-wife/

(For UK members only...)

alfa
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by alfa » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:31 pm

Animals do experience pain.

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No_Mind
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by No_Mind » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:44 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:40 am
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:26 am
I have no problem in being a part of samsara if I am not human. If I am a rat, crocodile, dog, lion, hyena .. where is the suffering?
/.../
Where is the animal equivalent of above?
/.../
Will you have lot of problem being a hippo or crocodile .. or shark .. or amoeba .. or anteater?
In the spirit of your request not to provide suttas, I suggest you read Thomas Nagel's seminal essay What is it like to be a bat?
Heaven forbid that I would ever accuse you of sutta throwing.

That particular sport is indulged in solely by white males, usually less than 35, belonging to California School of Buddhism, who are in state of constant angst about not being able to join the ranks of monastics and usually ask questions like "My father sells meat in his restaurant .. I work in his business washing dishes .. (the only job he trusts me with) .. am I accumulating bad Kamma by washing gravy from meat leftovers"

Hiheyhello wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:08 pm
Animals are subjected to mites, fleas, flies, ticks, internal parasites, disease with no access to medicine, being hunted for food, being hunted for trophies, poachers, being raised as livestock, violence from humans, violence from other animals, full exposure to volatile weather, and (in most cases) a shorter than human lifespan.

I think I have seen lot of humans suffer these in addition to paying for mortgage and lying in their own faeces for last few years of their lives.


They will soon end up as steak but at this moment they look positively elated

Image

At very least more than these people making $3 an hour processing Meezer's plane ticket to Malta

Image

I am yet to see any animal which has faced more pain than human (except lab rats). At end of the day it all comes down to point of view I guess.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Sam Vara
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:44 pm

I am yet to see any animal which has faced more pain than human (except lab rats).At end of the day it all comes down to point of view I guess.
Maybe the human capacity for suffering is what constitutes the preciousness. Whereas animals are restricted to merely avoiding the particular discomfort that afflicts them, humans are able to conceive of the cessation of the totality of suffering, complete and in the abstract.
And what is the result of suffering? It’s when someone who is overcome and overwhelmed by suffering sorrows and pines and cries, beating their breast and falling into confusion. Or else, overcome by that suffering, they begin an external search, wondering: ‘Who knows one or two phrases to stop this suffering?’ The result of suffering is either confusion or a search, I say.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato

Whereas animal wisdom is merely enough to prompt an avoidance of certain specific contacts, the conception of dukkha by humans leads to a different kind of wisdom altogether.
“Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to change. These are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.165/en/bodhi

It certainly looks as if animals are restricted to attempts to escape from the first type: dukkha-dukkhata. It doesn't work very well, and usually only provides temporary relief. By comprehending all three types of suffering (i.e. viparinama-dukkhata and sankhara dukkhata as well), humans can put an end to all types. If we just restrict ourselves to the alleviation of animal pain, then we have missed an opportunity.

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No_Mind
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by No_Mind » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:18 pm

Hiheyhello wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm
You have seen humans being hunted for food, parts, trophies, ect/raised as livestock? Lol.
Figuratively yes. It would have been a blessing to be hunted as food.
Hiheyhello wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm
Most modern humans have access to medicine and shelter from the elements. Many wild and domestic animals also have limited/inconsistent access to food and water and while some humans also have this problem, they usually still have access to medicine and/or shelter.
Really? Your lack of knowledge is perplexing.
Hiheyhello wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm
I am guessing you are not a farmer and have never seen an episode of fly strike or some equally nasty animal-related issue. There is a type of blood sucking mite for every type of land animal and they cannot just go to the vet to get medicine for it.
No I am not a farmer. But most humans suffer from parasites too. In any case it is not worse than having to take out a second mortgage to pay for cancer treatment.
Hiheyhello wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm
The cows you posted may look happy to you but the realities of the beef and diary industries paint a very different picture. For example, what do you think happens to the male cows? How about the dairy cows that are over the desirable age for dairy production? Google "average lifespan of cow" and compare it to the "average lifespan of a dairy or beef cow."
I wish I read this line first. You belong to California School of Buddhism. I don't answer that tribe .. Did you read what I wrote .. they die but the death takes few minutes. Would gladly trade places with them.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

Meezer77
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by Meezer77 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:18 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:44 pm

At very least more than these people making $3 an hour processing Meezer's plane ticket to Malta

I'm glad you brought that up. I bet the profits made from the subterfuge don't go towards these guys' wages!

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No_Mind
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by No_Mind » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:19 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm

Maybe the human capacity for suffering is what constitutes the preciousness. Whereas animals are restricted to merely avoiding the particular discomfort that afflicts them, humans are able to conceive of the cessation of the totality of suffering, complete and in the abstract.
Whereas animal wisdom is merely enough to prompt an avoidance of certain specific contacts, the conception of dukkha by humans leads to a different kind of wisdom altogether.
“Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to change. These are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.165/en/bodhi

It certainly looks as if animals are restricted to attempts to escape from the first type: dukkha-dukkhata. It doesn't work very well, and usually only provides temporary relief. By comprehending all three types of suffering (i.e. viparinama-dukkhata and sankhara dukkhata as well), humans can put an end to all types. If we just restrict ourselves to the alleviation of animal pain, then we have missed an opportunity.
Thank you. All good points. Let me chew over it for a day.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

Meezer77
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by Meezer77 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:23 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:27 pm
Meezer77 wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 am
Ants don't have it that great. They have to carry huge loads all the time and are really overworked. Don't think they have a union neither 😓😓😓
Here's one that's having a particularly hard time of it now:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/5 ... rive-wife/

(For UK members only...)
Well there's a surprise

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No_Mind
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by No_Mind » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:27 pm

Meezer77 wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:18 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:44 pm

At very least more than these people making $3 an hour processing Meezer's plane ticket to Malta
I'm glad you brought that up. I bet the profits made from the subterfuge don't go towards these guys' wages!
Not a chance.


:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

Meezer77
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Re: Preciousness of human life

Post by Meezer77 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:55 pm

After reading this thread I've decided that I'm not going any more holidays. I'm putting the money aside for dignitas

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