How to address wrong view?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Samana Johann 1
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How to address wrong view?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:53 am

Dedicated toward the Sangha of the Buddha and his good following discipes, with graditude toward my person parents, all the many admirable friend on a long journey and espcecially toward my persons first strong nissaya, mental preceptor, in this very fading existence, also for the generosity to look through this work, Bhante Nyanadassana.

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The English version is still not improved, but might give those able to receive nevertheless some good clarification: How to address wrong view?

As for the improved version, if having access to germa language, or wishing to make a better share: Wie entgegnet man Falscher Ansicht?

May all beings have a share of the merits, rejoice till highest fruits and may the Devas touch them, those who did not get in touch yet.

Metta & mudita
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

binocular
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:02 pm

It seems that in a forum like this, with almost exclusively lay people, attempting to correct another person's wrong view would be like the blind leading the blind.
A forum like this doesn't seem to be conducive to any definitive, decisive Buddhist practice.

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cappuccino
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:39 pm

how can everyone here be blind when the world is such

and here everyone sees more than the world

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:42 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:39 pm
and here everyone sees more than the world
Are you sure about that?

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cappuccino
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:58 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:42 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:39 pm
and here everyone sees more than the world
Are you sure about that?
any who knows the teaching

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by DNS » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 pm

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite!
Jesus
Matthew 7:1–5 (NKJV) (Also Luke 6:37–42)

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Hiheyhello » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:10 am

Admin, please deactivate my account. TIA
Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:24 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite!
Jesus
Matthew 7:1–5 (NKJV) (Also Luke 6:37–42)
It's just that:

1. The talk is under the Tripple Gems
2. The Tripple Gems do not advocate Jesus
3. It's o.k. if not having taken refuge, to act as a person of (former) other religion, not seeking for acceptance.

As for the Buddhas and Theras advices: Mv I 25: Aññatitthiyapubbakathā — The Discussion of Those Previously a Member of Another Religion, to understand.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:24 am

Hiheyhello wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:10 am
How to admonish another skillfully

"O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the five conditions which he should investigate in himself?

[1] "Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted...?

[2] "Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted...?

[3] "Is the heart of goodwill, free from malice, established in me towards fellow-farers in the holy life...?

[4] "Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who stores up what he has heard? Those teachings which are good alike in their beginning, middle, and ending, proclaiming perfectly the spirit and the letter of the utterly purified holy life — have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practiced in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by insight...?

[5] "Are the Patimokkhas [rules of conduct for monks and nuns] in full thoroughly learned by heart, well-analyzed with thorough knowledge of their meanings, clearly divided sutta by sutta and known in minute detail by me...?

"These five conditions must be investigated in himself.

"And what other five conditions must be established in himself?

[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?

[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?

[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?

[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?

[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?

"O bhikkhus, these five conditions are to be investigated in himself and the latter five established in himself by a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another."

— AN V (From The Patimokkha, Ñanamoli Thera, trans.)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... index.html
Sadhu!

Its worthy to remark that this, how ever, counts for those living independent of each other. As for in a relation, dependency, it's the duty to "If a viewpoint[10] arises in the teacher/pupil, the pupil/teacher should pry it away or get someone else to pry it away or one should give him a Dhamma talk." http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipit ... em_en.html

In this case, the OP is given in independency, simply out of compassion.

Since my skills are limited, is up to you to approach the Sangha, confess, ask for pardon, take refuge and ask for the sharing of merits, so that things will go proper for your community here, and in duty toward your leader, you dependency.
Last edited by Samana Johann 1 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by DNS » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:36 am

"If he recites many teachings, but — heedless man — doesn't do what they say, like a cowherd counting the cattle of others, he has no share in the contemplative life. If he recites next to nothing but follows the Dharma in line with the Dharma; abandoning passion, aversion, delusion; alert, his mind well-released, not clinging either here or hereafter: he has his share in the contemplative life."


Dhammapada 19-20
"As a bee — without harming the blossom, its color, its fragrance — takes its nectar & flies away: so should the sage go through a village."
Dhammapada 49
Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others. But let one see one’s own acts, done and undone.
Dhammapada 50

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:46 am

DNS wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:36 am
"If he recites many teachings, but — heedless man — doesn't do what they say, like a cowherd counting the cattle of others, he has no share in the contemplative life. If he recites next to nothing but follows the Dharma in line with the Dharma; abandoning passion, aversion, delusion; alert, his mind well-released, not clinging either here or hereafter: he has his share in the contemplative life."


Dhammapada 19-20
"As a bee — without harming the blossom, its color, its fragrance — takes its nectar & flies away: so should the sage go through a village."
Dhammapada 49
Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others. But let one see one’s own acts, done and undone.
Dhammapada 50
A fool, he who demands praise and rejects blame...
http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.06.than_en.html wrote:Regard him as one who
points out
treasure,
the wise one who
seeing your faults
rebukes you.
Stay with this sort of sage.
For the one who stays
with a sage of this sort,
things get better,
not worse.

Let him admonish, instruct,
deflect you
away from poor manners.
To the good, he's endearing;
to the bad, he's not.
Like the moon.

Maybe take A Good Dose of Dhamma, young son of Brahman

Or get taught by a wise Upasika on basics:
http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/kee/condensed_en.html wrote:There are lots of people who are ashamed to talk about their own defilements but who feel no shame at talking about the defilements of others. Those who are willing to report their own diseases — their own defilements — in a straightforward manner are few and far between. As a result, the disease of defilement is hushed up and kept secret, so that we don't realize how serious and widespread it is. We all suffer from it, and yet no one is open about it. No one is really interested in diagnosing his or her own defilements...

Say, for instance, that we hear a person criticizing someone else. We can listen and not get upset. But say that the thought occurs to us, "She's actually criticizing me." As soon as we conjure up this "me," we're immediately angry and displeased. If we concoct very much of this "me," we can get very upset. Just this fact alone should enable us to observe that as soon as our "self" gets involved, we suffer immediately. This is how it happens. If no sense of self comes out to get involved, we can remain calm and indifferent. When they criticize other people, we can stay indifferent; but as soon as we conclude that they're criticizing us, our "self" appears and immediately gets involved — and we immediately burn with defilement. Why?...
Last edited by Samana Johann 1 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Hiheyhello » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:48 am

Admin, please deactivate my account. TIA
Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:00 am

Hiheyhello wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:48 am
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Sadhu!

Let my person ask if it was out of compassion or as selfdefense, having quoted it? Maybe Nyom likes to give a present by 1. Reflect good and share its insights.

By the way, it might be not wrong that the OP was only less to zero investigated, by all participate, not to speak in a manner "neither approving nor rejecting" to get even an idea of what the talk is about, and its not supposed at gaining prais at all.

So maybe the home-task first beore thinking "I am smarter" as the head cold have been cut of already without being even aware of it.

And be sure, you are neither convetional nor ideal a monk and independent, but a child possible adressed by "your" father(s).
Last edited by Samana Johann 1 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:06 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Judge not, that you be not judged.
:heart:
Therefore, Ānanda, you should not be a hasty critic of people, should not lightly pass judgement on people. He who passes judgement on people harms himself. I alone, Ānanda, or one like me, can judge people.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208_Nyanap ... udgeOthers
https://suttacentral.net/an6.44/en/sujato

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Hiheyhello » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:37 am

:thanks:
Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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