How to address wrong view?

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Samana Johann 1
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:29 am

Mudita as far as Nyom had joy with his/her teacher. Karuna as far as he could not transport of what is given in the very first Suttas of the first and secound Nikaya, starting with DN 1.
Obviously in the case of a dependent child relation, one may need to admonish for safety reasons or to teach right view/behavior. Otherwise, I think that one should be very careful when criticizing or correcting another.
And Sadhu: Abhaya Sutta, here also a sample that even such can and is missused:
Right Speech is Not Always Gentle (by Sallie B. King) - about justifying wrongs

The kind Nyom appear, aproaches... shows clear that your teacher didn't teach you proper, and if he is blamed incorrect, it's because of the behaviour of his disciples that the is rightly rebuked here.

And it's easy to assume that Nyom had changed form an improper assambly around late Goenka, to a western Ajahn Chah "disciple". Or another corrupter of families if you have been really taught such. Of course it's neither proper to accept as Bhikkhu lay people as disciples, living in dependency of each other, not is it encouraged toward Bhikkhus to rebuke lay followers. Other than in the approach of other sects, from time to time.

How ever, it's good, like the elder lay disciple did and still do, to take Vinaya as a sample for they relations, inwardly and toward the Sangha. So lets contionue on this level here.

As for clear word of how the Buddha reacted to such a community dwelling like sheeps:
http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv04/mv.04.01.khem_en.html wrote:Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, “These worthless men, having spent the Rains [dwelling together in dependency of each other, sharing food...] uncomfortably, claim to have spent the Rains comfortably.

“Having spent the Rains in cattle-like affiliation, these worthless men claim to have spent the Rains comfortably.

“Having spent the Rains in sheep-like affiliation, these worthless men claim to have spent the Rains comfortably.

“Having spent the Rains in heedless-affiliation, these worthless men claim to have spent the Rains comfortably.

“How can these worthless men undertake a vow of dumb silence, the undertaking of sectarians?

(Mv.IV.1.13) “Monks, this neither inspires faith in the faithless …”
As for the cases where a community have fallen into transgression (lets say here, wrong view and Sanghadisesa 13)
http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv04/mv.04.08.khem_en.html wrote:Now on that occasion, the entire Saṅgha in a certain residence had fallen into an offense common to one another on the day of the Invitation. Then the thought occurred to them, “It has been laid down by the Blessed One that an offense common to one another should not be confessed; (the confession of) an offense common to one another should not be received. But this entire Saṅgha has fallen into a common offense. What should we do?”

They reported the matter to the Blessed One.

“Monks, there is the case where the entire Saṅgha in a certain residence has fallen into an offense common to one another on the day of the Invitation.

“Monks, one monk should be sent by the monks to a neighboring residence immediately, (saying,) ‘Go, friend. Make amends for that offense and come back. We will make amends for the offense in your presence.’

“If this can be managed, well and good. If not, then an experienced and competent monk should inform the Saṅgha:

“‘Venerable sirs, may the Saṅgha listen to me. This entire Saṅgha has fallen into an offense common to one another. When it sees another monk — pure, without (that) offense — then it will make amends for that offense in his presence.’ Once that has been said, he/they should invite.[2]

Not from that cause alone should an obstruction to the Uposatha be made.”

“Monks, there is the case where the entire Saṅgha in a certain residence is doubtful about an offense common to one another on the day of the Invitation.

“An experienced and competent monk should inform the Saṅgha:

“‘Venerable sirs, may the Saṅgha listen to me. This entire Saṅgha is doubtful about an offense common to one another. When it becomes free from doubt, then it will make amends for that offense.’ Once that has been said, he/they should invite.

“Not from that cause alone should an obstruction to the Uposatha be made.”
It's worthy to study this in detail, the Khandhaka here and Mahavagga as a whole in regard of community issues, refuge and teacher/student relations.

Again, you should regard your self here as either "those previous from other religions", "corrupted", or "without having taken refuge/or broken".

As for dwelling with alajji (people not shy in doing misdeeds), like asked by A Bhikkhu.

It's a fault to dwell in dependency with shameless people. For householders or people general, if accociating, not having reached the path, it's just a matter of time that you will adopt it. Like may of you outside here behaviour well but in here, "thought inofficial" like worsest idiots. That comes from not letting go of desire of being part on feeding.

In regard of Vinaya, if dwelling indepentend, not using community advantages, or eating together, for a while or because bound (such as to care about ones sich preceptor, or being sick, no problem.

In the case not aware, no problem.

In the case anxiety or fear, still not taking actions or leave, a fault.

In the case of deliberately dwelling, incinerated for Shism at least, a grave fault.

As for Sanghadisesa 13 today, its hard to possible find a Sangha of 20 Bhikkhus not having fallen into offence, if even one still exists. So especially Bhikkhus should take care of such and usually, if serious in Vinaya, there will be less who dwell just for 1 vassa on a place.

As for you lay people community, be sure that it is not possible for a lajji Bhikkhu to apprach here as it is not even wished and not even basic conditions are given, will be even avoided so that it will not happen.

Aware or not, there are (nearly) no places in this realm where a conductive parisa dwells. Serious Bhikkhus have disappeared and inserious, shameless are only found on google, facebook... on the bog marked places.

Those things should be considered, and there is a reason why most of you run around here in disguise. But be sure, a community or a Bhikkhu of the Disciples of the Buddha knows and sees anyway.

So it's good to confess, ask for pardon, take/ask for refuge and invite to rejoice in your merits, ask for the share of merits from good monks.

Yet you will not easy find. And if, having returned here, and encorage others, will not work...

Again, the Brahmans son David would have the merits to establish a monastery and a place for a parisa to come together, but since he is not only strong corruped by corrupt monks and foolish pride, adicted to chess and politics, holding weapons, disrespectless forward the tripple Gems, you all here dwell under such. The list of respectlessness is very long including the "thieving" for trade in Gems.

And it's not said that you don't fullfill your duties and ignore your mass on debts you have accumulated here toward him, but to seek out of proper ways, like a child toward the father, to possible bend him into right direction.Not at all in a way my person does here, you are not in the position, have not the serious liberality but you live in dependency and feed on the relation. You are in debt.

There is no problem to "break a promis" if out of higher reason, of cause.

There are also two duties: a student, not seeking for pardon, is an offence.
A teacher not accepting a pardon an offense.

Look at MVI at the end. Worthy to study and practice, addopted also for lay people like done today, often only citing stranger text in pali when again meeting the monks (as lay disciples, as you think you are...)

Since you hardly figure out defilements and know you own mind, even if 50 years practice and still behave like childs, it's good to consider to possible try the ways of the elders, or simply follow in all regards of you paticulat relations the lay mens discipline. Not in a demanting position, but in a dutie position. What the conterpart in each relation does, thats his merit or demerit.

Fullfilling you duties e.g. precepts, is at fist place ones own protection.

As for all your kind of argumentations here, you are maybe not aware that most of you use one of two patterns: either victim blaming or to call for the conceit of the group by "we", since you usually debate here for gain of praise for wordly objectives and not for release.
http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.04.than_en.html wrote:Namo...

Many devas and human beings
give thought to protection,
desiring well-being.
Tell, then, the highest protection.
The Buddha:
Not consorting with fools,
consorting with the wise,
paying homage to those worthy of homage:
This is the highest protection.

Living in a civilized land,
having made merit in the past,
directing oneself rightly:
This is the highest protection.

Broad knowledge, skill,
well-mastered discipline,
well-spoken words:
This is the highest protection.

Support for one's parents,
assistance to one's wife and children,
consistency in one's work:
This is the highest protection.

Giving, living in rectitude,
assistance to one's relatives,
deeds that are blameless:
This is the highest protection.

Avoiding, abstaining from evil;
refraining from intoxicants,
being heedful of the qualities of the mind:
This is the highest protection.

Respect, humility,
contentment, gratitude,
hearing the Dhamma on timely occasions:
This is the highest protection.

Patience, compliance,
seeing contemplatives,
discussing the Dhamma on timely occasions:
This is the highest protection.

Austerity, celibacy,
seeing the Noble Truths,
realizing Unbinding:
This is the highest protection.

A mind that, when touched
by the ways of the world,
is unshaken, sorrowless, dustless, at rest:
This is the highest protection.

Everywhere undefeated
when acting in this way,
people go everywhere in well-being:
This is their highest protection.
If realicing how actually less blessed you are, seek of getting protected by giving proper upanissayapaccayena (strong condition causes), e.g. forget your illusions about meditation and work hard on the basics: they are hard, but the base. It's not possible to build a tower based on mud.

And since there is actually no real base to teach those involved in improper ways anything, my person will leave now, and stop here. Duties are done and it's up to you if you like to spend your times for a good or bad, and with whom. You are in the "sad" position to be neither bound (ordained in Buddhas relition) nor really independent.

And since such "householder-equanimity" and teaching such, e.g. post-modernism is the most dangerous cutting off for a long long time, the Buddha, when normally not that eager, used all his possibilities to remove that such can stay or arise. Yet, we ate at the end of his teaching... Hurry up and seek for those possible also proper to practice the basics.

You have to leave fools behind and certain desire for sensual pleasure and becoming to be able to do so. When you seek for Mara and Devadatta, you gain it. Nobody else can bring you out of the hole you have fallen into. How: the ways have been given and can be asked in addition if something is not clear, probably not here, not based on thoughts of equal, for there is no way to escape on this base but just over and out.

And, it's not wrong to warn without unskillful fear, aversion, greed, illusion:

Worthy to read: in regard of issa: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,402. ... tml#msg944

And about the judge, the rabbit: Mahā Īsī Proh Khlā (The Great Hermit Saves the Tiger’s Life) http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,370. ... tml#msg820 (worthy to tell, when remebering, Brahman son David being a Tiger, possoble now waked up...)

An Analysis of the Trickster Archetype as Represented by the Rabbit Character in Khmer Folktales http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,371.0.html (not only of how the rabbit became a judge, a smarty a wise, but also of the good and bad use of Dhamma


Mudita with those able to rejoice and may the Devas inform those not having been touched yet, and metta, fellows on the path and nyeat nyom.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

Hiheyhello
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Hiheyhello » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

binocular
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:45 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite!
Jesus
Matthew 7:1–5 (NKJV) (Also Luke 6:37–42)
Focusing on the issue of finding fault in others (while not seeing one's own) only detracts from the issue at hand.

This topic of how, and if at all, to address (supposed) wrong view in other people keeps coming up in this forum over and over again. I've yet to see a resolution. There apparently exists a system of admonition between monks, and another system between teachers and their lay students.
However, in a forum setting like this, how should this be addressed?

The idea "I'm full of faults myself, so I have no business admonishing others" may seem pious and humble, but I think it misses the point. Because if there is such a thing as Right View, it should be possible to identify it and clearly, objectively distinguish it from wrong views; and it's not clear why doing so should be inappropriate.

Hiheyhello
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Hiheyhello » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:07 pm

:redherring:
Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DNS
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by DNS » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:45 pm
This topic of how, and if at all, to address (supposed) wrong view in other people keeps coming up in this forum over and over again. I've yet to see a resolution. There apparently exists a system of admonition between monks, and another system between teachers and their lay students.
However, in a forum setting like this, how should this be addressed?

The idea "I'm full of faults myself, so I have no business admonishing others" may seem pious and humble, but I think it misses the point. Because if there is such a thing as Right View, it should be possible to identify it and clearly, objectively distinguish it from wrong views; and it's not clear why doing so should be inappropriate.
Yes, I agree and there are clear examples of people expressing wrong views, but that doesn't mean one should post exclusively in a belittling manner every time someone posts and constantly admonishing other posters. Then it just makes the person look arrogant (as if they know all the answers) and gives appearance of passive-aggressive attacks.

binocular
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:38 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
Yes, I agree and there are clear examples of people expressing wrong views, but that doesn't mean one should post exclusively in a belittling manner every time someone posts and constantly admonishing other posters. Then it just makes the person look arrogant (as if they know all the answers) and gives appearance of passive-aggressive attacks.
I don't take issue with that.
Secondly, if someone belittles others, then they are not practicing Right View to begin with, so there's no issue.
If they look arrogant in their admonishing of others, then that's for them to deal with.

I'm in favor of the "Let the kids sort it out for themselves, without the intervention of adults" approach. Meaning that I think people should look after themselves even in difficult situations, without relying on institutions such as elders or social rules to protect them. Because in reality, those institutions cannot protect a person, especially not in religious matters.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by Hiheyhello » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:01 pm

:alien:
Last edited by Hiheyhello on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:27 pm

Hiheyhello wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:01 pm
I think it's also good to remember that another person's wrong view is their problem. If you start to engage with them about it and that engagement goes sideways, it then also becomes your problem. Lol.
Well, yes. And I think letting these things play out, is the correct(ive) measure.
Take for example this entire thread where the OP got offended and left. No one attacked him personally but having his views challenged despite the fact that he never actually solicited feedback on them did not sit well and resulted in some sort of meltdown.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the OP's intentions. I think he even said somewhere things to the effect that we're not devoted to the Dhamma enough and that it's a waste for him to try to associate with us. I can hardly blame him. And I agree when he says that many people make trade with the Dhamma, not just in terms of money, but in terms of using the Dhamma in an effort to gain praise and status.

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Re: How to address wrong view?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:37 pm

How to address wrong view?
But you, O foolish man, have misrepresented us by what you personally have wrongly grasped. You have undermined your own future and have created much demerit. This, foolish man, will bring you much harm and suffering for a long time.
Alagaddupama Sutta

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