Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:07 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:54 pm
Would you mind explain Perception according to English not Pali ?
A belief .. e.g. there is a perception in rest of the world that Trump will be impeached.

:namaste:
There's a problem here , if perception were to translate as belief and Chinese as 想 = think,I don't think any Chinese speaker will understand dhamma by reading Chinese translation only .
:reading:

2600htz
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by 2600htz » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:08 pm

Hello:

Of course you can, pali its just good for debating :jumping:

Regards.

chownah
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by chownah » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:10 pm

The buddha (if I remember correctly) said that it was ok for monks to teach the dhamma in the language of the people they were with in their travels. I guess this means that the true dhamma can be learned without pali.
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:23 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:08 pm
Hello:

Of course you can, pali its just good for debating :jumping:

Regards.
:shrug:
:reading:

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No_Mind
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:07 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:54 pm
Would you mind explain Perception according to English not Pali ?
A belief .. e.g. there is a perception in rest of the world that Trump will be impeached.

:namaste:
There's a problem here , if perception were to translate as belief and Chinese as 想 = think,I don't think any Chinese speaker will understand dhamma by reading Chinese translation only .
Chinese characters are logograms and cannot be correctly translated always

Here are some "epic fails"

Image

Image

Image

It is considerably more difficult to translate English into Chinese than say German to English.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

binocular
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:37 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:33 pm
What if the teacher misguided you ?
Do you mean that you have realized that your teacher misguided you?
In that case, you're not at a loss, because you understand that you were misguided by your teacher and can now learn from that.

If you're asking generally: It's important to be careful when one chooses a teacher.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

James Tan
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:07 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 pm


A belief .. e.g. there is a perception in rest of the world that Trump will be impeached.

:namaste:
There's a problem here , if perception were to translate as belief and Chinese as 想 = think,I don't think any Chinese speaker will understand dhamma by reading Chinese translation only .
Chinese characters are logograms and cannot be correctly translated always

Here are some "epic fails"

Image

Image

Image

It is considerably more difficult to translate English into Chinese than say German to English.

:namaste:
That's hilarious !
However , would you really consider that ? and do you compare it to those translations by a whole group of expertise which majority are of elite monastic at the those time ? It seems the translation today in English need further improvements . Especially , most of English translations were done by individual . There's lacking of consensus .
:reading:

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No_Mind
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:30 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm
However , would you really consider that ? and do you compare it to those translations by a whole group of expertise which majority are of elite monastic at the those time ? It seems the translation today in English need further improvements . Especially , most of English translations were done by individual . There's lacking of consensus .
I have an advantage that most on this forum do not. The modern Bengali vocabulary contains the vocabulary base from Magadhi Prakrit and Pali. Also Pali is close to Sanskrit and I have reasonably good idea of Sanskrit (not because I can read it but many people I know can and it is the base of most Indian languages)

It is an unfair advantage.

But I only read English translations (by different authors if possible) and never original Pali. Why strain the brain. It is already under lot of strain.

Shall I learn Russian to read Tolstoy, German to read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, Aramaic to read the Bible, Spanish to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez?

That is an useless proposition.

But .. if you are such a believer in Dhamma that you are hundred percent sure like dylanj that you will do nothing else but learn Dhamma through your life then of course learn Pali ..


:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

James Tan
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:46 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:30 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm
However , would you really consider that ? and do you compare it to those translations by a whole group of expertise which majority are of elite monastic at the those time ? It seems the translation today in English need further improvements . Especially , most of English translations were done by individual . There's lacking of consensus .
I have an advantage that most on this forum do not. The modern Bengali vocabulary contains the vocabulary base from Magadhi Prakrit and Pali. Also Pali is close to Sanskrit and I have reasonably good idea of Sanskrit (not because I can read it but many people I know can and it is the base of most Indian languages)

It is an unfair advantage.

But I only read English translations (by different authors if possible) and never original Pali. Why strain the brain. It is already under lot of strain.

Shall I learn Russian to read Tolstoy, German to read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, Aramaic to read the Bible, Spanish to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez?

That is an useless proposition.

But .. if you are such a believer in Dhamma that you are hundred percent sure like dylanj that you will do nothing else but learn Dhamma through your life then of course learn Pali ..

:namaste:
Thanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .

:rolleye:
:reading:

auto
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by auto » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm

perception is a loan from indoeuropean language. hehe guess by searching information from internet.
Last edited by auto on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seeker242
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by seeker242 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm

Dhammapada Verse 282
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language. :smile:

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No_Mind
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:57 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:46 pm
Thanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .
:rolleye:
Look at an ordinary Indian .. any of us

We know our mother tongue Bengali/Tamil etc, one language for north India which is Hindi, and of course English. In any given hour I speak all three. I am not unique .. same is true for most of us .. reading a Bengali newspaper while listening to cricket commentary in Hindi or news in English.

You are expected to know at least two languages as an educated person. Possibly three. So Mandarin and English should be considered normal learning task.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I know one thing: that I know nothing

auto
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by auto » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:06 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm
Dhammapada Verse 282
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language. :smile:
Words/ their meaning is located in different parts in brain not in one place, every word has its place. If you read it clicks via sense and meaning is gotten, and that part of brain reacts.
Science have made brain maps. Ideally all languages are same, but seeing unknown language it doesn't make sense and no reaction and no meaning and no understanding can't happen.

James Tan
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:44 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:57 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:46 pm
Thanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .
:rolleye:
Look at an ordinary Indian .. any of us

We know our mother tongue Bengali/Tamil etc, one language for north India which is Hindi, and of course English. In any given hour I speak all three. I am not unique .. same is true for most of us .. reading a Bengali newspaper while listening to cricket commentary in Hindi or news in English.

You are expected to know at least two languages as an educated person. Possibly three. So Mandarin and English should be considered normal learning task.

:namaste:
Ah ha , mother tongue of course . Other than my mother tongue 1.Teochew , I had to learn mother language 2. Mandarin and much more difficult 3. Classical Chinese . With the second language 4. English , then we have to learn our national language 5. Bahasa . I dropped 6. Jawi language as to lessen the load .

Nowadays , all the children's school bag is heavier than his body's weight .

I supposed to be live efficiently in this world , one need to be all equipped . And by this , is called stress . Because not everyone born with higher IQ and EQ , plus MQ .
:reading:

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No_Mind
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:46 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:44 pm
Ah ha , mother tongue of course . Other than my mother tongue 1.Teochew , I had to learn mother language 2. Mandarin and much more difficult 3. Classical Chinese . With the second language 4. English , then we have to learn our national language 5. Bahasa . I dropped 6. Jawi language as to lessen the load .

Nowadays , all the children's school bag is heavier than his body's weight .

I supposed to be live efficiently in this world , one need to be all equipped . And by this , is called stress . Because not everyone born with higher IQ and EQ , plus MQ .
:bow:

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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