Greetings ,
Recently , my friend were telling me that he is taking Pali courses in order to learn true accurate dhamma ? Without which one may misapprehending the dhamma !
Now , I don't know if this is the only way to learn true dhamma ? For over two thousand years many people learned the dhamma without getting to know Pali .
Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
You always gain by giving
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Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
To be realised.......is not the same as learn.
Mundane knowledge is a raft!
Mundane knowledge is a raft!
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
I think it is certainly possible to understand what the Buddha talked about without knowing any Pali. The Pali scholar Richard Gombrich has strongly encouraged people to take up studying the language, but points out that it is possible to understand the meaning from translations; he believes that the essence of the teachings can be understood in one's own language, and without too many technical terms.
I am very slowly learning the basics of Pali, but my meditation teacher made an interesting observation. When we read translations, we are at the mercy of the assumptions and prejudices of the translator, which are impossible to see. But when we translate for ourselves, we are at the mercy of our own assumptions and prejudices, which are hard to see in a different way.
I am very slowly learning the basics of Pali, but my meditation teacher made an interesting observation. When we read translations, we are at the mercy of the assumptions and prejudices of the translator, which are impossible to see. But when we translate for ourselves, we are at the mercy of our own assumptions and prejudices, which are hard to see in a different way.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Fortunately or unfortunately, many words (not just in Pali) have complex meanings. In any given sutta, how can one know for sure which meaning of a word was meant?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Certainty is always elusive, of course, but I think context is key. Just taking a few baby steps in learning Pali has shown me, however, how fragile the whole enterprise is. It is a good remedy against dogmatism.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Hence a suggestion is to take a middle way, a kind of triangulation: Read the sutta in a few translations (preferrably in different languages), try to understand the sutta via one's own learning of Pali, and discuss the sutta with admirable companions in the holy life. When this is done, an understanding can emerge that otherwise wouldn't.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:01 amI am very slowly learning the basics of Pali, but my meditation teacher made an interesting observation. When we read translations, we are at the mercy of the assumptions and prejudices of the translator, which are impossible to see. But when we translate for ourselves, we are at the mercy of our own assumptions and prejudices, which are hard to see in a different way.
Something like the way playing a musical piece from sheet music sounds best and makes sense only in some tempos and dynamic ranges, but not others.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Agreed. Good post.binocular wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:22 amHence a suggestion is to take a middle way, a kind of triangulation: Read the sutta in a few translations (preferrably in different languages), try to understand the sutta via one's own learning of Pali, and discuss the sutta with admirable companions in the holy life. When this is done, an understanding can emerge that otherwise wouldn't.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:01 amI am very slowly learning the basics of Pali, but my meditation teacher made an interesting observation. When we read translations, we are at the mercy of the assumptions and prejudices of the translator, which are impossible to see. But when we translate for ourselves, we are at the mercy of our own assumptions and prejudices, which are hard to see in a different way.
Something like the way playing a musical piece from sheet music sounds best and makes sense only in some tempos and dynamic ranges, but not others.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Not automatically, as evidently, there is plenty of Buddhist dogmatists who know Pali.
Not everyone who knows something suffers from the curse of knowledge.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Guys , Let me show you an example .
Take sanna , English translation is perception .
Chinese translation is 想 .
Now , I don't know what sanna in Pali , but ,
I do know Chinese character with better grasping . Here's the difference between English and Chinese , how do you interpret perception ?
想 mean think / thinking .
How do you resolve this differences ?
Take sanna , English translation is perception .
Chinese translation is 想 .
Now , I don't know what sanna in Pali , but ,
I do know Chinese character with better grasping . Here's the difference between English and Chinese , how do you interpret perception ?
想 mean think / thinking .
How do you resolve this differences ?
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Maybe. I've not yet encountered any solid ground suitable for the construction of a nice dogmatic edifice, but that might be because I'm just a beginner. But to be sure, it's not a certain remedy...
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
By taking it to mean apperception, rather than mere perception? This would have a mental component of assimilation or recognition, which is closer to "thinking" than "awareness of sense data". But one would, I think, need a knowledge of Chinese to get the full meaning of the character and then come up with a good translation.James Tan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:36 am Guys , Let me show you an example .
Take sanna , English translation is perception .
Chinese translation is 想 .
Now , I don't know what sanna in Pali , but ,
I do know Chinese character with better grasping . Here's the difference between English and Chinese , how do you interpret perception ?
想 mean think / thinking .
How do you resolve this differences ?
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
想 = think (not perception)Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:47 amBy taking it to mean apperception, rather than mere perception? This would have a mental component of assimilation or recognition, which is closer to "thinking" than "awareness of sense data". But one would, I think, need a knowledge of Chinese to get the full meaning of the character and then come up with a good translation.James Tan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:36 am Guys , Let me show you an example .
Take sanna , English translation is perception .
Chinese translation is 想 .
Now , I don't know what sanna in Pali , but ,
I do know Chinese character with better grasping . Here's the difference between English and Chinese , how do you interpret perception ?
想 mean think / thinking .
How do you resolve this differences ?
Perception = 知觉 = feeling (not thinking)
The problem is , I look at the Google translation , from Chinese to English and from English to Chinese is quite different .
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Which is not surprising; English and Chinese are such different languages.
On a general note: it can often be futile to make comparisons between languages one isn't fluent in.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Therefore , I couldn't figure out the true meaning of sanna , that is If I only refer to English or Chinese only . I may get the wrong message .
Thus , it seems we are at lost with many things since we normally only able to read one language .
Last edited by sentinel on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
It's fascinating that a word can mean all that -- want, think, wish, suppose, believe, miss, feel like doing.
Given the complexity of the matter, it seems one doesn't have much choice but to have some faith in translators, and, which is just as important, to make sense of having faith like that.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!