There's a problem here , if perception were to translate as belief and Chinese as 想 = think,I don't think any Chinese speaker will understand dhamma by reading Chinese translation only .
Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Hello:
Of course you can, pali its just good for debating
Regards.
Of course you can, pali its just good for debating
Regards.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
The buddha (if I remember correctly) said that it was ok for monks to teach the dhamma in the language of the people they were with in their travels. I guess this means that the true dhamma can be learned without pali.
chownah
chownah
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Chinese characters are logograms and cannot be correctly translated always
Here are some "epic fails"
It is considerably more difficult to translate English into Chinese than say German to English.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Do you mean that you have realized that your teacher misguided you?
In that case, you're not at a loss, because you understand that you were misguided by your teacher and can now learn from that.
If you're asking generally: It's important to be careful when one chooses a teacher.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
That's hilarious !No_Mind wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 pmChinese characters are logograms and cannot be correctly translated always
Here are some "epic fails"
It is considerably more difficult to translate English into Chinese than say German to English.
However , would you really consider that ? and do you compare it to those translations by a whole group of expertise which majority are of elite monastic at the those time ? It seems the translation today in English need further improvements . Especially , most of English translations were done by individual . There's lacking of consensus .
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
I have an advantage that most on this forum do not. The modern Bengali vocabulary contains the vocabulary base from Magadhi Prakrit and Pali. Also Pali is close to Sanskrit and I have reasonably good idea of Sanskrit (not because I can read it but many people I know can and it is the base of most Indian languages)James Tan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm However , would you really consider that ? and do you compare it to those translations by a whole group of expertise which majority are of elite monastic at the those time ? It seems the translation today in English need further improvements . Especially , most of English translations were done by individual . There's lacking of consensus .
It is an unfair advantage.
But I only read English translations (by different authors if possible) and never original Pali. Why strain the brain. It is already under lot of strain.
Shall I learn Russian to read Tolstoy, German to read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, Aramaic to read the Bible, Spanish to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez?
That is an useless proposition.
But .. if you are such a believer in Dhamma that you are hundred percent sure like dylanj that you will do nothing else but learn Dhamma through your life then of course learn Pali ..
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Thanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .No_Mind wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:30 pmI have an advantage that most on this forum do not. The modern Bengali vocabulary contains the vocabulary base from Magadhi Prakrit and Pali. Also Pali is close to Sanskrit and I have reasonably good idea of Sanskrit (not because I can read it but many people I know can and it is the base of most Indian languages)James Tan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm However , would you really consider that ? and do you compare it to those translations by a whole group of expertise which majority are of elite monastic at the those time ? It seems the translation today in English need further improvements . Especially , most of English translations were done by individual . There's lacking of consensus .
It is an unfair advantage.
But I only read English translations (by different authors if possible) and never original Pali. Why strain the brain. It is already under lot of strain.
Shall I learn Russian to read Tolstoy, German to read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, Aramaic to read the Bible, Spanish to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez?
That is an useless proposition.
But .. if you are such a believer in Dhamma that you are hundred percent sure like dylanj that you will do nothing else but learn Dhamma through your life then of course learn Pali ..
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
perception is a loan from indoeuropean language. hehe guess by searching information from internet.
Last edited by auto on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Dhammapada Verse 282
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."
"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.
Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language.
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."
"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.
Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Look at an ordinary Indian .. any of us
We know our mother tongue Bengali/Tamil etc, one language for north India which is Hindi, and of course English. In any given hour I speak all three. I am not unique .. same is true for most of us .. reading a Bengali newspaper while listening to cricket commentary in Hindi or news in English.
You are expected to know at least two languages as an educated person. Possibly three. So Mandarin and English should be considered normal learning task.
Last edited by No_Mind on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Words/ their meaning is located in different parts in brain not in one place, every word has its place. If you read it clicks via sense and meaning is gotten, and that part of brain reacts.seeker242 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm Dhammapada Verse 282
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."
"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.
Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language.
Science have made brain maps. Ideally all languages are same, but seeing unknown language it doesn't make sense and no reaction and no meaning and no understanding can't happen.
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
Ah ha , mother tongue of course . Other than my mother tongue 1.Teochew , I had to learn mother language 2. Mandarin and much more difficult 3. Classical Chinese . With the second language 4. English , then we have to learn our national language 5. Bahasa . I dropped 6. Jawi language as to lessen the load .No_Mind wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:57 pmLook at an ordinary Indian .. any of us
We know our mother tongue Bengali/Tamil etc, one language for north India which is Hindi, and of course English. In any given hour I speak all three. I am not unique .. same is true for most of us .. reading a Bengali newspaper while listening to cricket commentary in Hindi or news in English.
You are expected to know at least two languages as an educated person. Possibly three. So Mandarin and English should be considered normal learning task.
Nowadays , all the children's school bag is heavier than his body's weight .
I supposed to be live efficiently in this world , one need to be all equipped . And by this , is called stress . Because not everyone born with higher IQ and EQ , plus MQ .
You always gain by giving
Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?
James Tan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:44 pm Ah ha , mother tongue of course . Other than my mother tongue 1.Teochew , I had to learn mother language 2. Mandarin and much more difficult 3. Classical Chinese . With the second language 4. English , then we have to learn our national language 5. Bahasa . I dropped 6. Jawi language as to lessen the load .
Nowadays , all the children's school bag is heavier than his body's weight .
I supposed to be live efficiently in this world , one need to be all equipped . And by this , is called stress . Because not everyone born with higher IQ and EQ , plus MQ .
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus