Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by seeker242 »

Dhammapada Verse 282
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language. :smile:
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by No_Mind »

James Tan wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:46 pm Thanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .
:rolleye:
Look at an ordinary Indian .. any of us

We know our mother tongue Bengali/Tamil etc, one language for north India which is Hindi, and of course English. In any given hour I speak all three. I am not unique .. same is true for most of us .. reading a Bengali newspaper while listening to cricket commentary in Hindi or news in English.

You are expected to know at least two languages as an educated person. Possibly three. So Mandarin and English should be considered normal learning task.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
auto
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by auto »

seeker242 wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:51 pm Dhammapada Verse 282
"Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase."

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

Transcendental Dependent Arising doesn't mention learning any particular language. :smile:
Words/ their meaning is located in different parts in brain not in one place, every word has its place. If you read it clicks via sense and meaning is gotten, and that part of brain reacts.
Science have made brain maps. Ideally all languages are same, but seeing unknown language it doesn't make sense and no reaction and no meaning and no understanding can't happen.
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by sentinel »

No_Mind wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:57 pm
James Tan wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:46 pm Thanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .
:rolleye:
Look at an ordinary Indian .. any of us

We know our mother tongue Bengali/Tamil etc, one language for north India which is Hindi, and of course English. In any given hour I speak all three. I am not unique .. same is true for most of us .. reading a Bengali newspaper while listening to cricket commentary in Hindi or news in English.

You are expected to know at least two languages as an educated person. Possibly three. So Mandarin and English should be considered normal learning task.

:namaste:
Ah ha , mother tongue of course . Other than my mother tongue 1.Teochew , I had to learn mother language 2. Mandarin and much more difficult 3. Classical Chinese . With the second language 4. English , then we have to learn our national language 5. Bahasa . I dropped 6. Jawi language as to lessen the load .

Nowadays , all the children's school bag is heavier than his body's weight .

I supposed to be live efficiently in this world , one need to be all equipped . And by this , is called stress . Because not everyone born with higher IQ and EQ , plus MQ .
You always gain by giving
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by No_Mind »

James Tan wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:44 pm Ah ha , mother tongue of course . Other than my mother tongue 1.Teochew , I had to learn mother language 2. Mandarin and much more difficult 3. Classical Chinese . With the second language 4. English , then we have to learn our national language 5. Bahasa . I dropped 6. Jawi language as to lessen the load .

Nowadays , all the children's school bag is heavier than his body's weight .

I supposed to be live efficiently in this world , one need to be all equipped . And by this , is called stress . Because not everyone born with higher IQ and EQ , plus MQ .
:bow:

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
User avatar
ryanM
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by ryanM »

Why would a language hold a monopoly over mental freedom?
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya

"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by binocular »

James Tan wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:46 pmThanks , but like you said , I am also under strain .
Mandarin itself is tough enough , what more to say English and another one or two language to learn .
Which is why it is so important to have a clear sense of priorities and set oneself realistic goals.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by binocular »

ryanM wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:58 pm Why would a language hold a monopoly over mental freedom?
Not a particular language, but language as such does seem to have such monopoly.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by dharmacorps »

I think learning a little pali can help you understand the suttas better, particularly key words like kamma, dhamma, dukkha.

But that said there are more than a few people who know Pali quite well, and are linguistic geniuses with translations, but don't understand the teachings very well in a practical sense. The two skills, language and understanding, are interestingly not the same thing. We've seen this with some prominent scholarly monks recently.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

No_Mind wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:59 pm
James Tan wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:54 pm Would you mind explain Perception according to English not Pali ?
A belief .. e.g. there is a perception in rest of the world that Trump will be impeached.

:namaste:
It can also be more general. One's perception of the world is the information their senses give them. Alternatively one's perception of the world can be one's political opinions. In English, at least.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17192
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by DNS »

No_Mind wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 pm Chinese characters are logograms and cannot be correctly translated always
Here are some "epic fails"
Here are some names of real chinese restaurants here in Vegas:

Image

Image

First comes fat, then the dung....

I'm sure in Chinese it has a much better meaning.
User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by Circle5 »

binocular wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:30 pm
James Tan wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:26 pmTherefore , I couldn't figure out the true meaning of sanna , that is If I only refer to English or Chinese only . I may get the wrong message .
And learning Pali doesn't really do away with this problem either. Hence one doesn't seem to have much choice but to study with a teacher, someone who actually has some expertise in the matter.
Why not translate it whoever you want ? Why not translate it in such a way that it fits your already established views, no matter how ridiculous the translation might end up, and simply refuse to address any kind of criticism you might receive ? I've seen a couple of gurus/teachers doing pretty good using this method.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19944
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is it possible to learn true dhamma without Pali ?

Post by mikenz66 »

To be fair, David, you are pointing out a different problem from translation - cases where words from another language sound like English words (or vice versa). In some cases this can lead to embarrassing encounters when it sounds like one is swearing in the local language.

I fondly remember a business in Hong Kong called Wong Kee Construction. And I was devastated when I broke my Fu King Hammer (that is literally what it said in the handle...). :cry:

:heart:
Mike
Post Reply