Kamma determined birth ?

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James Tan
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Kamma determined birth ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:39 am

Greetings ,

Hi there , is it that our birth in the human being realm is due to kamma ? Which sutta can substantiate this ?
:reading:

chownah
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by chownah » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:51 am

If it is not kamma then what else could it be? From a buddhist point of view there doesn't seem to be any other option.....but maybe I have missed seeing the other options. Open my eyes.
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:59 am

Human rebirth is from keeping the five precepts.

And being lucky.
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Zom
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by Zom » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:11 am

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/bodhi

(oh, I love this new Sutta Central) 8-)

James Tan
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:54 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:11 am
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/bodhi

(oh, I love this new Sutta Central) 8-)
Thanks , is it to take birth in deva realm is superior than human realm than animal than ghost than hell ? Is there any mentioning that to assume male form supposed to be superior than female form ?
:reading:

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TamHanhHi
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by TamHanhHi » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:10 pm

Here's a nice chart of the different realms: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html. Rebirth as a human is considered extremely rare and fortunate, even better than rebirth in some deva realms.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."—AN 5.38 :candle:

chownah
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by chownah » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:26 pm

TamHanhHi wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:10 pm
Here's a nice chart of the different realms: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html. Rebirth as a human is considered extremely rare and fortunate, even better than rebirth in some deva realms.
Interesting that you call it "fortunate" since the main question of this thread is whether kamma determines birth. For you to say that rebirth as a human is "fortunate" it seems that you are saying that it happens by good fortune.....a synonym for good fortune is "luck".....but I doubt that you are meaning that one attains human rebirth by "luck".....so....if not luck, then what?
chownah

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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by justindesilva » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:59 am
Human rebirth is from keeping the five precepts.

Keeping precepts, means to behave properly.
How kamma determines rebirth and where a being
is born after death , in a happy or a painful state and in which realm are all complex situations. Our immediate kusala kamma may not bring fruitful situations against an akusala karma we have had in a birth long before can ripen with misery in our next birth and vice versa. These are well explained by lord Buddha in Maha kamma vibhanga sutta (MN136) ; The details of which are not easy unless one reads this sutta cautiously.

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ganegaar
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by ganegaar » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:54 pm

if we accept that "next 'event' is born conditioned by the previous 'events'",
the birth X is just another "event", conditioned by the previous "events".
if we accept "it is a re-birth" that is we accept existance of past "events", then those belong to the life before this "birth X".
So yes, "kamma phala" (result of past actions) is a required conditioning factor in determing the birth.
I am not sure whether its the one and only factor though.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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TamHanhHi
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by TamHanhHi » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:10 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:26 pm
Interesting that you call it "fortunate" since the main question of this thread is whether kamma determines birth. For you to say that rebirth as a human is "fortunate" it seems that you are saying that it happens by good fortune.....a synonym for good fortune is "luck".....but I doubt that you are meaning that one attains human rebirth by "luck".....so....if not luck, then what?
chownah
You're right, I don't mean luck. By fortunate I mean that rebirth as a human is generally good--in that as a human one has the capacity to attain awakening or enter the stream. One attains human rebirth by consciously doing wholesome actions that generate wholesome, favorable or good results.

BUT, it is extremely rare and the workings of kamma are complex. Because we've wandered along samsara since beginningless time, who knows what kind of bad or good karma-fruit is waiting for the right conditions to manifest.

Of course, you can endure a lot of suffering in the human realm, but I don't think that even comes close to the animal, ghost, or hell realms where you either can't understand the Dhamma or are too distracted by your intense suffering.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."—AN 5.38 :candle:

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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by Zom » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:20 pm

Thanks , is it to take birth in deva realm is superior than human realm than animal than ghost than hell ? Is there any mentioning that to assume male form supposed to be superior than female form ?
Well, there are suttas which say that woman can't be Buddha, Maha Brahma, Sakka. In this sense it (male birth) is superior.

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TamHanhHi
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by TamHanhHi » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:28 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:20 pm
Well, there are suttas which say that woman can't be Buddha, Maha Brahma, Sakka. In this sense it (male birth) is superior.
Do you have the reference to these suttas? I saw that once too but I can't remember where.

In any case, maybe it's better to say that a sammasambuddha etc. can't have a woman's body. That's important because a woman in this life could be reborn as a male deva, etc. (And a man in this birth can be reborn as a woman, and so on.)
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."—AN 5.38 :candle:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:01 pm

TamHanhHi wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:28 pm
Zom wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:20 pm
Well, there are suttas which say that woman can't be Buddha, Maha Brahma, Sakka. In this sense it (male birth) is superior.
Do you have the reference to these suttas? I saw that once too but I can't remember where.

In any case, maybe it's better to say that a sammasambuddha etc. can't have a woman's body. That's important because a woman in this life could be reborn as a male deva, etc. (And a man in this birth can be reborn as a woman, and so on.)
One version of this is in MN 115:
‘It’s impossible for a woman to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. But it is possible for a man to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.’ They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a woman to be a wheel-turning monarch. But it is possible for a man to be a wheel-turning monarch.’
They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a woman to perform the role of Sakka, Māra, or Brahmā. But it is possible for a man to perform the role of Sakka, Māra, or Brahmā.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato

chownah
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:54 pm

I couldn't believe it when I read this sutta....it says that human rebirth happens by sheer coincidence:
SN 56.48
Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
Sheer coincidence?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:37 pm

Hi chownah ,

FYI ,
I checked the parallel SA 406 , there is no mention about chance or coincident .
I couldn't find the Pali version ?
Perhaps someone could figure it out .
:reading:

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cappuccino
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:43 pm

translations are good enough

one need not doubt everything, every little thing

faith is hindered by doubt
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:49 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:54 pm
I couldn't believe it when I read this sutta....it says that human rebirth happens by sheer coincidence:

Sheer coincidence?
chownah
My guess is that this is a translation issue. "Coincidence" literally means "happening together", as well as the more common understanding of "happening without any causal connection".

Unfortunately, this is not one that Ven. Sajato has translated on SC, so we can't check the word out, and my Pali isn't good enough to go through the whole thing.

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DNS
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:07 pm

Yes, I agree it might be a translation or interpretation issue. By 'coincidence' it is probably meaning just how difficult and how many aeons in took to obtain human birth, not that it was by chance, but rather just how long it took.

In numerous other suttas we see the Buddha describing good deeds as leading to good destinations and bad deeds leading to bad destinations, especially in the Vim. and Petav.

"Monks, possessing forty qualities one is cast into purgatory . . . he takes life himself, encourages another to do so, approves of taking life, and speaks in praise of thereof . . ." Anguttara Nikaya 10. 213

In SN 19.1 the Buddha talks about a being that that looks like a group of old bones and it is being pecked by crows flying around Vulture Peak. He said that being was a butcher in his past life.

Some good deeds leading to good rebirths:
How it come to be possessed by me, this mansion with its flocks of herons, peacocks, and partridges; and frequented by heavenly water-fowl and royal geese; resounding with the cries of birds, of ducks and cuckoos;
containing divers varieties of creepers, flowers and trees; with trumpet-flower, rose-apple, and asoka trees now how this mansion came to be possessed by me, I will tell you. Listen, venerable sir.
In the eastern region of the excellent country of Magadha there is a village called Nalaka, venerable sir. There I lived formerly as a daughter-in-law and they knew me there as Sesavati.
Scattering flower-blossoms joyfully I honored him skilled in deeds and worshipped by gods and men, the great Upatissa[1] who has attained the immeasurable quenching.
Having worshipped him gone to the ultimate bourn, the eminent seer bearing his last body, on leaving my human shape I came to (the heaven of) the thirty (-three) and inhabit this place.
Vim. 3.7
I was highly and well restrained in the precepts and established in the Dhamma taught by the most excellent of men, the Awakened One.
When I gained the distinctive undying, assured, eminent in penetrative insight, not doubting, I was revered by many people and experienced much pleasure and enjoyment.
Thus I am a goddess, knowing the undying, a disciple of the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One; a knower of Dhamma established in the first fruit, a stream-enterer. Henceforth there is no bad bourn for me.
Vim. 1.6

Planetary
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by Planetary » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:02 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:43 pm
translations are good enough

one need not doubt everything, every little thing

faith is hindered by doubt

I hope this is sarcasm

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cappuccino
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Re: Kamma determined birth ?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:42 pm

Planetary wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:02 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:43 pm
translations are good enough

one need not doubt everything, every little thing

faith is hindered by doubt

I hope this is sarcasm
no

Spiritual progress depends on the emergence of five cardinal virtues — faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el065.html

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