New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:14 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm
Excellent! You've probably had the opportunity to study it in some depth, then. Can you find in it nothing but principles by which it would be impossible to live an unsquished lay life?
So far, no.

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Sam Vara
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:18 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 pm
Excellent! You've probably had the opportunity to study it in some depth, then. Can you find in it nothing but principles by which it would be impossible to live an unsquished lay life?
So far, no.
That's unfortunate, not to mention a possible waste of a subscription. Have you found any useful teachings elsewhere in the canon?

davidbrainerd
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by davidbrainerd » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:17 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 pm
davidbrainerd wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:27 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:04 pm
How can this be relevant to us, living in the world?
If one wants to live in the world and of the world, as a womanwhore or manwhore, then it has no relevance. If one is forced to live in the world but does not want to be of the world, and especially intends to peruse a celibate life, then it has relevance.
How? I think it would be naive to live in the world by the principles given in the Sutta Nipata. I don't mean to be unnecessarily critical, but I really do doubt the usefulness of such instructions and principles for lays. All I can see is that living that way out in the world, one will get squished by the world.
There's a new movement of non-buddhists who are finding the sort of principles contained there very helpful in living in the world, but its all male. They're living this way to avoid getting MeToo'd and to avoid being used as nothing but a disposable tool by society.

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Will
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Will » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:51 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 pm

How? I think it would be naive to live in the world by the principles given in the Sutta Nipata. I don't mean to be unnecessarily critical, but I really do doubt the usefulness of such instructions and principles for lays. All I can see is that living that way out in the world, one will get squished by the world.
Is it the world doing the 'squishing' or our worldly mind? To quote Buddha:
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19
The mind is the determining factor, so as long as one thinks the world will squish helpless lay folk, then that is the way one will live.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Sam Vara
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:18 am

Will wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:51 am


Is it the world doing the 'squishing' or our worldly mind? To quote Buddha:
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19
The mind is the determining factor, so as long as one thinks the world will squish helpless lay folk, then that is the way one will live.
:goodpost:

binocular
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:40 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:17 am
There's a new movement of non-buddhists who are finding the sort of principles contained there very helpful in living in the world, but its all male. They're living this way to avoid getting MeToo'd and to avoid being used as nothing but a disposable tool by society.
Exactly. It's all male.

Secondly, how do you deal with the possibility that those espousing those principles could abandon them anytime?

Even what seemed dedicated monks sometimes disrobe and take up a lifestyle they criticized severely when they were monks. People change. Some go from vegan to meat-eating supporters. In fact, it seems quite common that people with high ideals eventually resort to lifestyles they previously disapproved of.
Such things happening does not fill me with hope and with trust in what those idealistic people are saying.

binocular
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 am

Will wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:51 am
Is it the world doing the 'squishing' or our worldly mind? To quote Buddha:
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19
The mind is the determining factor, so as long as one thinks the world will squish helpless lay folk, then that is the way one will live.
So it's all in my head?
My concern is that the idea that it's all in my head is just all in my head, and isn't how things actually are. And that the crucial things in life are independent of how one thinks about them.

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Sam Vara
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:39 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 am

So it's all in my head?
No, it's in your fathom-long body. :jumping:

https://suttacentral.net/an4.45/en/sujato
My concern is that the idea that it's all in my head is just all in my head
But the concern is all in your head, isn't it?
and isn't how things actually are. And that the crucial things in life are independent of how one thinks about them.
You don't know how things actually are. And things being "crucial" is only our judgement about them. There is no objective crux.

binocular
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:41 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:39 am
There is no objective crux.
And this is supposed to be an objective statement?

This is both funny, and so not.

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Sam Vara
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:07 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:41 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:39 am
There is no objective crux.
And this is supposed to be an objective statement?
No, a working hypothesis.

binocular
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:43 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:07 pm
No, a working hypothesis.
It's not clear how at this level of importance and urgency, one could allow for working hypotheses.

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Sam Vara
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:12 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:07 pm
No, a working hypothesis.
It's not clear how at this level of importance and urgency, one could allow for working hypotheses.
It's all you've got. Dogmatism can lead one in the wrong direction. Lack of commitment will go nowhere. So make your best-informed hypothesis, and test it through action.

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Will
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by Will » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 am
Will wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:51 am
Is it the world doing the 'squishing' or our worldly mind? To quote Buddha:
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19
The mind is the determining factor, so as long as one thinks the world will squish helpless lay folk, then that is the way one will live.
So it's all in my head?
My concern is that the idea that it's all in my head is just all in my head, and isn't how things actually are. And that the crucial things in life are independent of how one thinks about them.
Not 'all in your head' (nor all 'out there') but no avoiding the head or mind filter. As verse 768? says:
3. Whoever avoids sensual pleasures
as if the head of a snake with his foot,
the sticky nature of the world
he mindfully passes over.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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aflatun
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Re: New Translation: Suttas from the Suttanipāta

Post by aflatun » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:15 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:56 pm
I've already read a few of these and they are very well done. Bravo to all those involved
Ditto and ditto. I'm really enjoying reading this, and its fitting in with my collection of sutta nipata translations quite well :reading:
SDC wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:56 pm
and to Path Press for offering yet another great title free of charge.
For real
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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