What does it mean external namarupa ?

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Dinsdale
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:52 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm
And the Nikaya text says:
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...


Then" contact" is the transfer of properties of the external dhatus & khandhas to the internal.
In the suttas contact ( phassa ) is just the "meeting of the three", ie sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness.

"The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact..."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

I don't understand your idea of "transfer of properties" here. Which sutta(s) are you basing this on?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

ToVincent
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:01 am

Dinsdale wrote: the above



Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso

Saṅgati (from saṅgacchati [saṁ+gacchati] [saṃ-gam] : come together).
Union, combination.

√ गम् gam
to cause to go to any condition, cause to become (RV AV TS. SBr.).

I see no reason why phasso, that I have already covered in the same way previously (do a search on "transfer of property"), and which has this underlying meaning in pre-Buddhist Vedic text, would not be this becoming condition.
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We deal with the same problem with vedana, sanna & vinnana.
When one translates (as it appears in the Vedic texts), vedana with its underlying meaning of "experience with a wish to know more" ; then sanna as "inquiry with assumptions" ; then vinnana as the resulting (personal) final knowledge, derived from these assumptions - then things become clearer.
These are not my personal conjectures on these meanings; but a lexicographic fact.
By the way, Sujato's translation of sankhara as "choice", makes a lot of sense; particularly when it comes to the internal.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Samana Johann 1
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm

Total without much even pleasant entertaining elaboration and without having letting external nama-rupa arise much by reading the posts here in advanced, it's easy to "lose" a sense of self while mind gets absorbed, better absorbs or burns on outwardly:

What does it mean external namarupa ?

"Simply": That of which does not go under your skin.

Or "less Simply" of what becoming, state, arises when the mind has an object outwardly the body as it's ārammaṇa, space for being/becoming, i.e if indentification with something external takes place, so as being touched by the (ugly) nose of somebody or by a stand/view/jati of another. One could say that of which conventionally is not regarded as I but you, they, that: e.g. not connected with ones body.

What is the difference between the wise man and the fool?

This answer can be also given by simply no more ignorance-touch (avijjaphassa) [of how things come into being and decay.] = untouched

Maybe my persons post or appearance touch is a good sample of which kind of touch is meant by outwardly of ones body being (nama-rupa) in it's inwardly and ouwardly meaning, gross and fine.

Because of that the notion of "we" is in this regard extra comblicated, the splitt has been made at the skin of ones body. Note, this idea of what is ones skin of ones own is not sure, especially in states of having been transcendent rupas of the five sense.


To get things seen more clear "in and of it self", "in and of it self" is most importand when observing in the frames of reference. If simply working on a philosophical level, meaning developing skins around your ideas, it's probably impossible to gain a border, either in regard of internal, external, or in regard of name and matter, because only nama-rupa matters, because of objectification (papanca), and the running out of time of this body is easy overseen.

Ven. Ariyavaṃsa wrote a possible releasing article on PP about phassa, but one should be aware that also this places has not out of reason many achors to get outwardly, gross and fine attached and caught. So given for the sake of release and not to become subject or object of philo-trade and entertaining. Be one be touched at vijja!

May this answer give release here, and may those wise, knowledgeable, out of compassion, express if there are serious graps or if missleading without letting their bodies or external namarupa come into play and propably suffer from it afterwards.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:35 pm

Samana Johann 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm
What is the difference between the wise man and the fool?

This answer can be also given by simply no more ignorance-touch (avijjaphassa) [of how things come into being and decay.] = untouched
The difference is written in the sutta:
Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body (Tasmā bālo kāyassa bhedā kāyūpago hoti). Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

tasmā
abl. adv. of ta(d)
therefore; on that account; as correlative to yasmā

Bheda
breaking, rending, breach, disunion, dissension Vism.64 sq. (contrasted with ānisaṃsa), Vism.572 sq (with ref. to upādāna & bhava); Vb-a.185 (id.); Sdhp.66, Sdhp.457, Sdhp.463
■ mithu˚; breaking of alliance DN.ii.76; Ja.iv.184; Kv.314
■ vacī˚; breaking of [the rule as to speech Mil.231
■ saṅgha˚; disunion in the Sangha Vin.ii.203
■ sīla˚; breach of morality Ja.v.163
■ abl

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
mfn.
going to (a new) body (see kāya)

Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
adjective
attached to the body; going to a new birth

Kāyūpaga - only found in one sutta (SN 12.19) and one Milinda Pañha.
‘sace amittā dūre bhavissanti usunā pātayissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti sattiyā paharissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti kaṇayena paharissāmi, upagataṃ santaṃ maṇḍalaggena dvidhā chindissāmi, kāyūpagataṃ churikāya vinivijjhissāmī

If the enemy (amittā) should remain afar off (dūre) I can knock them down with my arrows (usunā), should they come thence towards me I can hit them with my javelins, should they come yet nearer I can reach them with my spear, should they come right up I can cleave them (chindissāmi) in two (dvidhā) with my sabre, should they come to close quarters (kāyūpagataṃ) I can pierce them through and through (vinivijjhissāmī) with my dagger (churikāya)
Compare to:
Yo kho, sāriputta, imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati aññañca kāyaṃ upādiyati tamahaṃ ‘saupavajjo’ti vadāmi.

When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’.
:candle:
Samana Johann 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm
May this answer give release here, and may those wise, knowledgeable, out of compassion, express if there are serious graps or if missleading without letting their bodies or external namarupa come into play and propably suffer from it afterwards.
The wise do not create ideas/views of 'selves' ('atta') or 'beings' ('satta') either internally or externally. The wise see only aggregates (kaya) and nama-rupa (minds & bodies), both internally & externally.

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:17 am

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:01 am
I see no reason why phasso, that I have already covered in the same way previously (do a search on "transfer of property"), and which has this underlying meaning in pre-Buddhist Vedic text, would not be this becoming condition.
I still don't follow. Surely "transfer of property" is a function of sanna ( perception ), rather than phassa ( contact )? Sanna is the function of recognising properties. The illustration of sanna in the suttas is the recognition of colour, but it would also include the recognition of properties like shape, hardness, coolness, etc.

Phassa is the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness, which means it is the basis or precondition for sanna and vedana.

By the way, I couldn't find anything relevant on "transfer of property", could you provide a specific link which supports your idea? Or even better, some sutta passages which support your idea of phassa as "transfer of properties". Obscure references to Vedic texts really aren't adequate in a discussion like this.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:35 pm
Samana Johann 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm
What is the difference between the wise man and the fool?

This answer can be also given by simply no more ignorance-touch (avijjaphassa) [of how things come into being and decay.] = untouched
The difference is written in the sutta:
Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body (Tasmā bālo kāyassa bhedā kāyūpago hoti). Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

tasmā
abl. adv. of ta(d)
therefore; on that account; as correlative to yasmā

Bheda
breaking, rending, breach, disunion, dissension Vism.64 sq. (contrasted with ānisaṃsa), Vism.572 sq (with ref. to upādāna & bhava); Vb-a.185 (id.); Sdhp.66, Sdhp.457, Sdhp.463
■ mithu˚; breaking of alliance DN.ii.76; Ja.iv.184; Kv.314
■ vacī˚; breaking of [the rule as to speech Mil.231
■ saṅgha˚; disunion in the Sangha Vin.ii.203
■ sīla˚; breach of morality Ja.v.163
■ abl

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
mfn.
going to (a new) body (see kāya)

Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
adjective
attached to the body; going to a new birth

Kāyūpaga - only found in one sutta (SN 12.19) and one Milinda Pañha.
‘sace amittā dūre bhavissanti usunā pātayissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti sattiyā paharissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti kaṇayena paharissāmi, upagataṃ santaṃ maṇḍalaggena dvidhā chindissāmi, kāyūpagataṃ churikāya vinivijjhissāmī

If the enemy (amittā) should remain afar off (dūre) I can knock them down with my arrows (usunā), should they come thence towards me I can hit them with my javelins, should they come yet nearer I can reach them with my spear, should they come right up I can cleave them (chindissāmi) in two (dvidhā) with my sabre, should they come to close quarters (kāyūpagataṃ) I can pierce them through and through (vinivijjhissāmī) with my dagger (churikāya)
Compare to:
Yo kho, sāriputta, imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati aññañca kāyaṃ upādiyati tamahaṃ ‘saupavajjo’ti vadāmi.

When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’.
:candle:
Samana Johann 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm
May this answer give release here, and may those wise, knowledgeable, out of compassion, express if there are serious graps or if missleading without letting their bodies or external namarupa come into play and propably suffer from it afterwards.
The wise do not create ideas/views of 'selves' ('atta') or 'beings' ('satta') either internally or externally. The wise see only aggregates (kaya) and nama-rupa (minds & bodies), both internally & externally.
Do the wise really think in these terms? :cry:

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DooDoot
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:13 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am
Do the wise really think in these terms? :cry:
This remark is criticising the suttas & the Buddha. The suttas describe it as follows:
Or how these beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the realm of the hungry ghosts.
The impression is the issue is an inability to communicate in the language of the Buddha; similar to visiting a foreign nation & observing the native people having fun but, due to not speaking the local language, unable to join in & participate.

:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:55 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:17 am

This is the link
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30370#p440038
Please note that you were part of this discussion.
So why asking again ?
-
My view on this "sticking to wrong or too vague meanings", is that we are playing here the "dog chasing tail" kind of game. Which might be of some interest and profitable for some people.
-
Once more, your "contact" ("feeling") and "perception", in their vagueness, are lacking the clarity of the Vedic meaning.
I will take for instance, feeling (vedana) and perception (sanna), as vaguely interpreted by everyone along these forums.
For, if you take the Vedic underlying meaning of vedana as "experience, with the wish to know more" - (in other words: the wish to inquire); then the Vedic underlying meaning of sanna as "inquiry, with its assumptions" makes more sense in a sutta like MN 43:
That which is feeling, your reverence, and that which is perception and that which is discriminative consciousness, these states are associated, not dissociated, and it is not possible to lay down a difference between these states, having analysed them again and again. 

In other words, the wish for an inquiry (which is a part of vedana) and the inquiry (which is a part of sanna), are associated, not dissociated. And the assumptions (which are a part of sanna) - (with the "choices" taken among these assumptions, viz. sankhara) - and the discriminative knowledge (vinnana) derived from these (chosen) assumptions, are associated, not dissociated.
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Dig it ?
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Why making things vague, when Vedic lexicograhy makes things perfectly clear ?
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It would be also good that you provide suttas' references.
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In which sutta does Buddha speak of perception (sanna) of color ? And in which sutta does he speak about cold, etc.?
Are they with parallels.
If so, is Buddha talking about qualia, which asks more for inquiry (sanna) when it comes to colour; or is He talking about simple and obvious feelings that can be measured (such as cold and heat) ?
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You have to be more rigorous in your sources (like as provinding suttas with parallels) ; but also about your lexicographic analysis.
That would be swell.
-
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So to resume what was said before about the external namarupa (as khandhas - SA 298), you just shift to the internal definition of namarupa in the Nikayas - that is to say, you transfer the properties of the external khandhas (external namarupa) and their sensory (external) ayatanani, to the internal ayatanani, through sense-consciousness. This is phassa. That is to say the result of the combination of the three.
Then you experience that, with a wish to inquire further (vedana) - you inquire and make assumptions (sanna). You make choices sankhara) - you make up your mind (manasi kr) - and that leads to your "personal" knowledge (vinnana) .
You crave for that (tanha), you appropriate that as yours (upadana) - and, for that reason (mostly craving), you wish for more existence (bhava) and birth (jati) ensues.
Why make things simple, when they can be complicated ?
-
-
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:06 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:13 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am
Do the wise really think in these terms? :cry:
This remark is criticising the suttas & the Buddha. The suttas describe it as follows:
Or how these beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the realm of the hungry ghosts.
The impression is the issue is an inability to communicate in the language of the Buddha; similar to visiting a foreign nation & observing the native people having fun but, due to not speaking the local language, unable to join in & participate.

:focus:
Humor is not allowed? You're much too serious, Doo Doot.

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DooDoot
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:48 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:06 pm
Humor is not allowed? You're much too serious, Doo Doot.
Well, folks use time & effort from good intentions to research Pali. Obviously, when trashy comments are posted, the mind naturally ponders is it merely a waste of time trying to help others? :|

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:48 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:06 pm
Humor is not allowed? You're much too serious, Doo Doot.
Well, folks use time & effort from good intentions to research Pali. Obviously, when trashy comments are posted, the mind naturally ponders is it merely a waste of time trying to help others? :|
Helping others is done without the thought of judgement about them or anything they think and do. Pondering is merely a waste of time if it is involved with unwholesome states of mind. Taking out the trash is good. One finds no 'others' there. :D

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:32 am

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:55 am
In which sutta does Buddha speak of perception (sanna) of color ?
"And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

I repeat my request for some sutta passages to support your idea of phassa as "transfer of properties." Your vague references to interpretation of Vedic meanings are not convincing, so let's see some sutta support.
ToVincent wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:55 am
So to resume what was said before about the external namarupa (as khandhas - SA 298), you just shift to the internal definition of namarupa in the Nikayas - that is to say, you transfer the properties of the external khandhas (external namarupa) and their sensory (external) ayatanani, to the internal ayatanani, through sense-consciousness. This is phassa. That is to say the result of the combination of the three.
I still think what you are describing is sanna rather than phassa, since sanna is the function of recognising properties. Actually I think this idea of "transferring properties" is a can of worms, since it objectifies external properties. Is there really an objective property "blue" out there, independent of our perception?

Again, some sutta passages in support of your interpretation would be useful, instead of just repeating your opinions about Vedic texts.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 am

Wait a minute !
I am not saying that contact is a wrong word. I am saying that the scope of "contact" encloses the underlying meaning of an
escheatment.
When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him.
SN 22.47

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Contact is more than just "the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousnes".
As "perception" is just more than just "perceiving". It is also the inquiry into that mere awareness of an experience.
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Having emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visākha, three contacts touch that monastic: emptiness contact, desirelessness contact, signlessness contact.”
MN 44

Viz. Having emerged from the cessation of experiences and their assumptions (with in betwwen, the conjoined wish to inquire and its inquiry), a monastic falls to the lot of (come upon/tranfer to himself the properties of) emptiness, desirelessness and signlessness (that remain).
-
Etc.
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You write:
"Is there really an objective property "blue" out there, independent of our perception?"
Sure.
And that is why Buddha says that we are here to be felt.
https://justpaste.it/19cgw
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Dinsdale
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:16 am

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 am
Contact is more than just "the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousnes".
But again you have failed to demonstrate this, based on what the suttas say. In the suttas phassa ( contact ) is just the meeting of the three. So the suttas seem to describe phassa as the arising of something at one of the sense bases. But I don't see the suttas describing sanna ( perception ) as an integral part of phassa, which seems to be your idea. But by all means present some sutta passages which support this idea, if you can find them.
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 am
-
You write:
"Is there really an objective property "blue" out there, independent of our perception?"
Sure.
Again, let's see some sutta passages which specifically support your interpretation. Note that I am not questioning whether there is something "out there" to be perceived. What I am questioning is the idea that of something out there which is objectively "blue", independent of our perceiving "blue".
I am saying that properties like "blue" are a function of sanna. You seem to be saying that properties like "blue" are "things" which exist independently and objectively?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:55 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:16 am
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 am
Contact is more than just "the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousnes".
But again you have failed to demonstrate this, based on what the suttas say. In the suttas phassa ( contact ) is just the meeting of the three. So the suttas seem to describe phassa as the arising of something at one of the sense bases.
.
Oh well, I think I can't do better.
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The "something" is just the tranfer of properties of the external namarupa. The sutta is in the OP first message.
That is to say, for instance, Picasso's painting (form), Picasso' feeling (vedana), etc., to myself.
The tranfer from the external namarupa to this body.
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Again, I have also provided MN 44 above, as an example of "contact" with a meaning that does not include the usual extract of the meeting of the triad (external + internal ayatanani + sense-consciousness).
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If you don't understand, there is nothing much I can do.
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Again, I am not making this up, but just refering to lexical facts. Root facts.
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Enough for me.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Dinsdale
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:00 am

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:55 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:16 am
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:22 am
Contact is more than just "the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousnes".
But again you have failed to demonstrate this, based on what the suttas say. In the suttas phassa ( contact ) is just the meeting of the three. So the suttas seem to describe phassa as the arising of something at one of the sense bases.
.
Oh well, I think I can't do better.
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The "something" is just the tranfer of properties of the external namarupa. The sutta is in the OP first message.
That is to say, for instance, Picasso's painting (form), Picasso' feeling (vedana), etc., to myself.
The tranfer from the external namarupa to this body.
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Again, I have also provided MN 44 above, as an example of "contact" with a meaning that does not include the usual extract of the meeting of the triad (external + internal ayatanani + sense-consciousness).
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If you don't understand, there is nothing much I can do.
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Again, I am not making this up, but just refering to lexical facts. Root facts.
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Enough for me.
There is no consensus here on the meaning of external name+form, and I don't see how the OP passage supports your idea of phassa as "transfer of properties".

Neither do I see how the MN44 passage supports your interpretation.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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