What does it mean external namarupa ?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:33 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:05 pm
Don't let yourself be dragged by these neo-brahmanic/hinduist/tantric savant terms, that make the internal a continuous self.
You mean Buddhavacana? :thinking: :sage:

From EBTs, no less. Where's the tantra? Where's the esoteric secrets?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

James Tan
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
:reading:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:06 am

If I may summarize the above lengthy interlude:
James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:28 pm
爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。

At that time , the World Honoured One told the bhikkhus , “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this consciousness body has thereby originated.

[...]
I do not mean to try to compete with you for a "better" translation. I see you are working with Ven Sujato's parallels and adapting the text to the Pāli. I myself as you know am just another amatuer looking at these texts as best I can.

Looking at how the text incorporates 識身, I would be tempted to see:

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。
At that time, the Bhagavān said to the myriad bhikṣavaḥ: "The ignorant assutavat (non-listener 無聞) pṛthagjana (worldling 凡夫) is by ignorance restrained (avidyayā nivṛtasya 無明覆), is by craving conditioned (tṛṣṇāpratyayena 愛緣) and connected (saṃyuktasyaivam 繫), there is had, with its consciousness, a body (samudāgataḥ savijñānakaḥ kāyaḥ 得此識身).

識身 may be even more recognizable as the Pāli viññāṇakāya. With this in mind, we also can read the ending as

愛緣繫,得此識身 --> tṛṣṇāpratyayena saṃyuktasyaivam samudāgatāḥ vijñānakāyāḥ --> by craving conditioned and connected there are had consciousness classes (but my Sanskrit is at its absolute limit there and that by all rights may not be correct)

consciousness classes is adapted from Ven Sujato's rendering of Chayime, bhikkhave, viññāṇakāyā from Sattaṭṭhānasutta SN 22.57 ("There are these[, monks,] six classes of consciousness.").

That rendering, particularly at the end, might help dispel some ambiguities that "consciousness body" might present as a rendering for 識身.
James Tan wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、[...]
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, [...]
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, [...]
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
I suppose that is possible. The written record seems to be against him, though.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:42 am, edited 8 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

chownah
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:07 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
How did that monk come to this conclusion? It is not very persuasive to just say that there is a monk which holds some view.....many monks hold views which are wrong.
chownah

James Tan
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:50 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:06 am
If I may summarize the above lengthy interlude:
James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:28 pm
爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。

At that time , the World Honoured One told the bhikkhus , “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this consciousness body has thereby originated.

[...]
I do not mean to try to compete with you for a "better" translation. I see you are working with Ven Sujato's parallels and adapting the text to the Pāli. I myself as you know am just another amatuer looking at these texts as best I can.

Looking at how the text incorporates 識身, I would be tempted to see:

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。
At that time, the Bhagavān said to the myriad bhikṣavaḥ: "The ignorant assutavat (non-listener 無聞) pṛthagjana (worldling 凡夫) is by ignorance restrained (avidyayā nivṛtasya 無明覆), is by craving conditioned (tṛṣṇāpratyayena 愛緣) and connected (saṃyuktasyaivam 繫), there is had, with its consciousness, a body (samudāgataḥ savijñānakaḥ kāyaḥ 得此識身).

識身 may be even more recognizable as the Pāli viññāṇakāya. With this in mind, we also can read the ending as

愛緣繫,得此識身 --> tṛṣṇāpratyayena saṃyuktasyaivam samudāgatāḥ vijñānakāyāḥ --> by craving conditioned and connected there are had consciousness classes (but my Sanskrit is at its absolute limit there and that by all rights may not be correct)

consciousness classes is adapted from Ven Sujato's rendering of Chayime, bhikkhave, viññāṇakāyā from Sattaṭṭhānasutta SN 22.57 ("There are these[, monks,] six classes of consciousness.").

That rendering, particularly at the end, might help dispel some ambiguities that "consciousness body" might present as a rendering for 識身.
James Tan wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、[...]
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, [...]
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, [...]
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
I suppose that is possible. The written record seems to be against him, though.
I am not here to argue with anyone . In this case , I supposed he is right . The Buddha's teachings always can be recognized as using :
Six sense bases
Six classes of consciousnesses
Six sense objects

I think you could figure it out .

Ps . Btw , I am not working with sujato or anything .
:reading:

ToVincent
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 am

Parallels mean sutta/sutra that have the same text in the Nikayas AND the Agamas.
Two same texts in the Nikayas (or in the Agamas) do not make a parallel; and can't be relied upon as EBT.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:03 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 am
Parallels mean sutta/sutra that have the same text in the Nikayas AND the Agamas.
Two same texts in the Nikayas (or in the Agamas) do not make a parallel; and can't be relied upon as EBT.
These are EBTs. They are substantiated in the Pāli Nikāyā. Chachakkasūtra = Chachakkasutta. They have the same content. The Chinese says "inner". Big deal.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

ToVincent
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:03 pm
These are EBTs. They are substantiated in the Pāli Nikāyā. Chachakkasūtra = Chachakkasutta. They have the same content. The Chinese says "inner". Big deal.
The problem is not so much in these petty discrepancies. The problem is that you are always mixing up your own interpretations in a sea of pseudo evidencies.

James' question was:
"When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ? "


And the Nikaya text says:
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...


At the eye ! - The internal !

Then" contact" is the tranfer of properties of the external dhatus & khandhas to the internal.
For instance, when you see a Picasso, you transfer the feeling of picasso (an external nama,) to yourself. And you are craving for it. And you are appropriating it.
But "it's not yours" says Buddha.
So I don't see where you get the following in the sutta:
"All is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu
All is adhyātmabahirdhācitte

You are one of these "universal consciousness" kind of person, trying desperately to make Buddhism such.
But that is not Buddhism. That is Vedic Brahmanism, Hinduism, tantrism, theosophism, ... etc.

Transfer of properties (phassa) and appropriation (upadana) do not mean that there is a "universal consciousness". It means that "it's wrong". Period !

Form, feeling, and perception,
and formations (determinations) —
‘I am not this, this isn’t mine,’
Thus one is detached from it.
SN 4.16

The above are just the external nama; as per Sa 298.
Contact (transfer of property), feeling, perception (inquiry and assumptions), choices (personal determinations), and whatever is "made" by the mind (manasikara) - is the internal nama; (as per SN12. 2).
-
-
Last edited by ToVincent on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:51 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm
And the Nikaya text says:
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...


At the eye ! - The internal !
Irrelevant? The contact is occurring between two things. Unless it is actually you who are the Yogācāra interpreter and you think forms only exist in the mind of the perceiver.
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm
So I don't see where you get the following in the sutta:
"All is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu
All is adhyātmabahirdhācitte

You are one of these "universal consciousness" kind of person, trying desperately to make Buddhism such.
But that is not Buddhism. That is Vedic Brahmanism, Hinduism, tantrism, theosophism, ... etc.
This doesn't deserve a responce. You should feel embarrassed for having written it.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

ToVincent
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:13 pm

What is Yogācāra anyway ¿¿¿¿
That's the problem with people always looking beyond Buddhism, and making it EBT.
I don't know post-"buddhist" stuff. I have parallels, and pre-Buddhist Vedic lexicography to make things clear. And I rely lightly on Chinese translations (late interpretations); if only to see if the content is the same with the Nikayas.
-
And I don't feel embarassed at all.
-
-
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Dinsdale
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:52 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm
And the Nikaya text says:
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...


Then" contact" is the transfer of properties of the external dhatus & khandhas to the internal.
In the suttas contact ( phassa ) is just the "meeting of the three", ie sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness.

"The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact..."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

I don't understand your idea of "transfer of properties" here. Which sutta(s) are you basing this on?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

ToVincent
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:01 am

Dinsdale wrote: the above



Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso

Saṅgati (from saṅgacchati [saṁ+gacchati] [saṃ-gam] : come together).
Union, combination.

√ गम् gam
to cause to go to any condition, cause to become (RV AV TS. SBr.).

I see no reason why phasso, that I have already covered in the same way previously (do a search on "transfer of property"), and which has this underlying meaning in pre-Buddhist Vedic text, would not be this becoming condition.
-
We deal with the same problem with vedana, sanna & vinnana.
When one translates (as it appears in the Vedic texts), vedana with its underlying meaning of "experience with a wish to know more" ; then sanna as "inquiry with assumptions" ; then vinnana as the resulting (personal) final knowledge, derived from these assumptions - then things become clearer.
These are not my personal conjectures on these meanings; but a lexicographic fact.
By the way, Sujato's translation of sankhara as "choice", makes a lot of sense; particularly when it comes to the internal.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Samana Johann 1
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm

Total without much even pleasant entertaining elaboration and without having letting external nama-rupa arise much by reading the posts here in advanced, it's easy to "lose" a sense of self while mind gets absorbed, better absorbs or burns on outwardly:

What does it mean external namarupa ?

"Simply": That of which does not go under your skin.

Or "less Simply" of what becoming, state, arises when the mind has an object outwardly the body as it's ārammaṇa, space for being/becoming, i.e if indentification with something external takes place, so as being touched by the (ugly) nose of somebody or by a stand/view/jati of another. One could say that of which conventionally is not regarded as I but you, they, that: e.g. not connected with ones body.

What is the difference between the wise man and the fool?

This answer can be also given by simply no more ignorance-touch (avijjaphassa) [of how things come into being and decay.] = untouched

Maybe my persons post or appearance touch is a good sample of which kind of touch is meant by outwardly of ones body being (nama-rupa) in it's inwardly and ouwardly meaning, gross and fine.

Because of that the notion of "we" is in this regard extra comblicated, the splitt has been made at the skin of ones body. Note, this idea of what is ones skin of ones own is not sure, especially in states of having been transcendent rupas of the five sense.


To get things seen more clear "in and of it self", "in and of it self" is most importand when observing in the frames of reference. If simply working on a philosophical level, meaning developing skins around your ideas, it's probably impossible to gain a border, either in regard of internal, external, or in regard of name and matter, because only nama-rupa matters, because of objectification (papanca), and the running out of time of this body is easy overseen.

Ven. Ariyavaṃsa wrote a possible releasing article on PP about phassa, but one should be aware that also this places has not out of reason many achors to get outwardly, gross and fine attached and caught. So given for the sake of release and not to become subject or object of philo-trade and entertaining. Be one be touched at vijja!

May this answer give release here, and may those wise, knowledgeable, out of compassion, express if there are serious graps or if missleading without letting their bodies or external namarupa come into play and propably suffer from it afterwards.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:35 pm

Samana Johann 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm
What is the difference between the wise man and the fool?

This answer can be also given by simply no more ignorance-touch (avijjaphassa) [of how things come into being and decay.] = untouched
The difference is written in the sutta:
Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body (Tasmā bālo kāyassa bhedā kāyūpago hoti). Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

tasmā
abl. adv. of ta(d)
therefore; on that account; as correlative to yasmā

Bheda
breaking, rending, breach, disunion, dissension Vism.64 sq. (contrasted with ānisaṃsa), Vism.572 sq (with ref. to upādāna & bhava); Vb-a.185 (id.); Sdhp.66, Sdhp.457, Sdhp.463
■ mithu˚; breaking of alliance DN.ii.76; Ja.iv.184; Kv.314
■ vacī˚; breaking of [the rule as to speech Mil.231
■ saṅgha˚; disunion in the Sangha Vin.ii.203
■ sīla˚; breach of morality Ja.v.163
■ abl

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
mfn.
going to (a new) body (see kāya)

Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
adjective
attached to the body; going to a new birth

Kāyūpaga - only found in one sutta (SN 12.19) and one Milinda Pañha.
‘sace amittā dūre bhavissanti usunā pātayissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti sattiyā paharissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti kaṇayena paharissāmi, upagataṃ santaṃ maṇḍalaggena dvidhā chindissāmi, kāyūpagataṃ churikāya vinivijjhissāmī

If the enemy (amittā) should remain afar off (dūre) I can knock them down with my arrows (usunā), should they come thence towards me I can hit them with my javelins, should they come yet nearer I can reach them with my spear, should they come right up I can cleave them (chindissāmi) in two (dvidhā) with my sabre, should they come to close quarters (kāyūpagataṃ) I can pierce them through and through (vinivijjhissāmī) with my dagger (churikāya)
Compare to:
Yo kho, sāriputta, imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati aññañca kāyaṃ upādiyati tamahaṃ ‘saupavajjo’ti vadāmi.

When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’.
:candle:
Samana Johann 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm
May this answer give release here, and may those wise, knowledgeable, out of compassion, express if there are serious graps or if missleading without letting their bodies or external namarupa come into play and propably suffer from it afterwards.
The wise do not create ideas/views of 'selves' ('atta') or 'beings' ('satta') either internally or externally. The wise see only aggregates (kaya) and nama-rupa (minds & bodies), both internally & externally.

Dinsdale
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:17 am

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:01 am
I see no reason why phasso, that I have already covered in the same way previously (do a search on "transfer of property"), and which has this underlying meaning in pre-Buddhist Vedic text, would not be this becoming condition.
I still don't follow. Surely "transfer of property" is a function of sanna ( perception ), rather than phassa ( contact )? Sanna is the function of recognising properties. The illustration of sanna in the suttas is the recognition of colour, but it would also include the recognition of properties like shape, hardness, coolness, etc.

Phassa is the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness, which means it is the basis or precondition for sanna and vedana.

By the way, I couldn't find anything relevant on "transfer of property", could you provide a specific link which supports your idea? Or even better, some sutta passages which support your idea of phassa as "transfer of properties". Obscure references to Vedic texts really aren't adequate in a discussion like this.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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