You mean Buddhavacana?
From EBTs, no less. Where's the tantra? Where's the esoteric secrets?
You mean Buddhavacana?
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pmBoth. Internal-external. IMO of course.
六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)
IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
I do not mean to try to compete with you for a "better" translation. I see you are working with Ven Sujato's parallels and adapting the text to the Pāli. I myself as you know am just another amatuer looking at these texts as best I can.
I suppose that is possible. The written record seems to be against him, though.James Tan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 amAccording to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pmBoth. Internal-external. IMO of course.
六內入處、六外入處、[...]
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, [...]
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, [...]
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)
IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
How did that monk come to this conclusion? It is not very persuasive to just say that there is a monk which holds some view.....many monks hold views which are wrong.James Tan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 amAccording to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pmBoth. Internal-external. IMO of course.
六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)
IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
I am not here to argue with anyone . In this case , I supposed he is right . The Buddha's teachings always can be recognized as using :Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:06 am If I may summarize the above lengthy interlude:I do not mean to try to compete with you for a "better" translation. I see you are working with Ven Sujato's parallels and adapting the text to the Pāli. I myself as you know am just another amatuer looking at these texts as best I can.
Looking at how the text incorporates 識身, I would be tempted to see:
爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。
At that time, the Bhagavān said to the myriad bhikṣavaḥ: "The ignorant assutavat (non-listener 無聞) pṛthagjana (worldling 凡夫) is by ignorance restrained (avidyayā nivṛtasya 無明覆), is by craving conditioned (tṛṣṇāpratyayena 愛緣) and connected (saṃyuktasyaivam 繫), there is had, with its consciousness, a body (samudāgataḥ savijñānakaḥ kāyaḥ 得此識身).
識身 may be even more recognizable as the Pāli viññāṇakāya. With this in mind, we also can read the ending as
愛緣繫,得此識身 --> tṛṣṇāpratyayena saṃyuktasyaivam samudāgatāḥ vijñānakāyāḥ --> by craving conditioned and connected there are had consciousness classes (but my Sanskrit is at its absolute limit there and that by all rights may not be correct)
consciousness classes is adapted from Ven Sujato's rendering of Chayime, bhikkhave, viññāṇakāyā from Sattaṭṭhānasutta SN 22.57 ("There are these[, monks,] six classes of consciousness.").
That rendering, particularly at the end, might help dispel some ambiguities that "consciousness body" might present as a rendering for 識身.I suppose that is possible. The written record seems to be against him, though.James Tan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 amAccording to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pmBoth. Internal-external. IMO of course.
六內入處、六外入處、[...]
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, [...]
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, [...]
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)
IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
These are EBTs. They are substantiated in the Pāli Nikāyā. Chachakkasūtra = Chachakkasutta. They have the same content. The Chinese says "inner". Big deal.
The problem is not so much in these petty discrepancies. The problem is that you are always mixing up your own interpretations in a sea of pseudo evidencies.
"When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ? "
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...
Form, feeling, and perception,
and formations (determinations) —
‘I am not this, this isn’t mine,’
Thus one is detached from it.
SN 4.16
Irrelevant? The contact is occurring between two things. Unless it is actually you who are the Yogācāra interpreter and you think forms only exist in the mind of the perceiver.
This doesn't deserve a responce. You should feel embarrassed for having written it.ToVincent wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pmSo I don't see where you get the following in the sutta:
"All is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu
All is adhyātmabahirdhācitte
You are one of these "universal consciousness" kind of person, trying desperately to make Buddhism such.
But that is not Buddhism. That is Vedic Brahmanism, Hinduism, tantrism, theosophism, ... etc.
In the suttas contact ( phassa ) is just the "meeting of the three", ie sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness.
Dinsdale wrote: the above
The difference is written in the sutta:Samana Johann 1 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pm What is the difference between the wise man and the fool?
This answer can be also given by simply no more ignorance-touch (avijjaphassa) [of how things come into being and decay.] = untouched
Kāyūpaga - only found in one sutta (SN 12.19) and one Milinda Pañha.Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body (Tasmā bālo kāyassa bhedā kāyūpago hoti). Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.
Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.
tasmā
abl. adv. of ta(d)
therefore; on that account; as correlative to yasmā
Bheda
breaking, rending, breach, disunion, dissension Vism.64 sq. (contrasted with ānisaṃsa), Vism.572 sq (with ref. to upādāna & bhava); Vb-a.185 (id.); Sdhp.66, Sdhp.457, Sdhp.463
■ mithu˚; breaking of alliance DN.ii.76; Ja.iv.184; Kv.314
■ vacī˚; breaking of [the rule as to speech Mil.231
■ saṅgha˚; disunion in the Sangha Vin.ii.203
■ sīla˚; breach of morality Ja.v.163
■ abl
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
mfn.
going to (a new) body (see kāya)
Concise Pali English Dictionary
kāyūpaga
adjective
attached to the body; going to a new birth
Compare to:‘sace amittā dūre bhavissanti usunā pātayissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti sattiyā paharissāmi, tato orato bhavissanti kaṇayena paharissāmi, upagataṃ santaṃ maṇḍalaggena dvidhā chindissāmi, kāyūpagataṃ churikāya vinivijjhissāmī’
If the enemy (amittā) should remain afar off (dūre) I can knock them down with my arrows (usunā), should they come thence towards me I can hit them with my javelins, should they come yet nearer I can reach them with my spear, should they come right up I can cleave them (chindissāmi) in two (dvidhā) with my sabre, should they come to close quarters (kāyūpagataṃ) I can pierce them through and through (vinivijjhissāmī) with my dagger (churikāya)“
Yo kho, sāriputta, imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati aññañca kāyaṃ upādiyati tamahaṃ ‘saupavajjo’ti vadāmi.
When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’.
The wise do not create ideas/views of 'selves' ('atta') or 'beings' ('satta') either internally or externally. The wise see only aggregates (kaya) and nama-rupa (minds & bodies), both internally & externally.Samana Johann 1 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:36 pmMay this answer give release here, and may those wise, knowledgeable, out of compassion, express if there are serious graps or if missleading without letting their bodies or external namarupa come into play and propably suffer from it afterwards.
I still don't follow. Surely "transfer of property" is a function of sanna ( perception ), rather than phassa ( contact )? Sanna is the function of recognising properties. The illustration of sanna in the suttas is the recognition of colour, but it would also include the recognition of properties like shape, hardness, coolness, etc.