Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

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theY
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by theY » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:16 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:49 pm
So, sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta andattānudiṭṭhisutta have the same content.
No.
If you read Pali sutta they all three are differernt.
ie:Mitchhaditthi, Sakkhayaditthi, Attanuditthi.
Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes. So, it can use to explain each other like appeared in Vinaya. Mahā (1) Anattalakkhaṇasutta:
‘Now what do you think, O bhikkhus, is the body permanent or perishable?’
‘It is perishable (anicca), Lord.’
‘And that which is perishable, does that cause pain or joy?’
‘It causes pain (dukkha), Lord.’
‘And that which is perishable, painful, subject to change, is it possible to regard that in this way. ‘This is mine, this am I, this is my self (atta)?’ ‘That is impossible, Lord.’
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by theY » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:38 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:52 pm
sakkāya-Anu-Diṭṭhi
I have not seen this term before.
Where you get that from?
You never have to see "I often(1) mis(2)-understand(3) of you-ahaṃ tuvaṃ micchā(2) anu(1)-passāmi(3)" sentence. But is it right, if I tell you A, B, and C have the same meaning:

A: I often understand of you as permanent person.

B: I misunderstand of you as permanent person.

C: I understand of you as my dear forever (misunderstanding sakkāya as attā).
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:15 am

theY wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:16 am
Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes.
This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. These suttas teach:

1. Seeing impermanence is the method for abandoning wrong view (micchādiṭṭhi).

2. Seeing unsatisfactoriness is the method for abandoning identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

3. Seeing not-self is the method for abandoning self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

Why is this teaching given in this manner?
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:18 am

This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. The suttas teach:
Thanks. :thumbsup:
That is what I like to explore in this post.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:35 am

theY wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:46 pm
Note1: Sakkāya is not only internal, because there are internal clinging-aggregates, internal sakkāya, and external clinging-aggregates, external sakkāya, which are contemplating by the practitioner in Cūlavedallasutta and Sutta. Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ (<< this link is a good translation of this sutta).
they meditate by observing an aspect of the principle inside and outside.
This is difficult to understand. Above, you seem to say kayanupassana in satipatthana means observing all of the five aggregates rather than only observing the physical groups, such as breathing kaya & rupa kaya (such as when MN 118 says the breathing is a 'kaya' among other kaya).

Sakkaya in the suttas refers to the five clung-to-aggregates. But you seem to be saying sakkaya is an object of kayanupassana in satipatthana. This sounds incorrect because the five clung-to-aggregates are included in dhammanupassana.
Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā? Seyyathidaṃ— rūpupā­dā­nak­khan­dho, vedanupā­dā­nak­khan­dho, saññu­pādā­nak­khan­dho, saṅ­khā­ru­pādā­nak­khan­dho, viñ­ñāṇupā­dā­nak­khan­dho. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ.

And what, monastics, is ‘in brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering’? These are the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. This is called ‘in brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering’.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn10
Also, the translation of MN 10 is not good. It is terrible. Above, the translation says the aggregates are "grasping" rather than are "grasped" & translates 'sankhara' as 'choices'. Below, the word 'upādā­na' has not been translated into English:
4.2. Dhammā­nu­passa­nā­khan­dha­pabba

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādā­nak­khan­dhesu. Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādā­nak­khan­dhesu

Furthermore, a monastic meditates by observing an aspect of the principles with respect to the five aggregates. And how, monastics, does a monastic meditate by observing an aspect of the principles with respect to the five aggregates?

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn10
grasped

ฉกฉวย
grasp, snatch, take, seize, wrest, grab
กำ
grip, clutch, grasp, hold, clench, clasp
ฉวย
snatch, seize, grab, snap, grasp, catch
grasping

โลภ
grabbing, greedy, grasping, voracious, gluttonous, avaricious
คว้าไม่ว่าอะไร
grasping
หน้าเลือด
grasping, greedy, rapacious, selfish
หน้าโลหิต
grasping, greedy, rapacious, selfish
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:10 am, edited 14 times in total.

James Tan
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:15 am
theY wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:16 am
Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes.
This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. These suttas teach:

1. Seeing impermanence is the method for abandoning wrong view (micchādiṭṭhi).

2. Seeing unsatisfactoriness is the method for abandoning identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

3. Seeing not-self is the method for abandoning self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

Why is this teaching given in this manner?
What is the difference between identity and self ?
Could you elaborate ?

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DooDoot
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:15 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:40 am
What is the difference between identity and self ? Could you elaborate ?
I cannot. I don't know. I think it depends on what the word 'sakkaya' means, etymologically.
Sakkāya: 'existing group'. 'this word is usually translated by 'personality', but according to the commentaries it corresponds to sat-kāya 'existing group', hence not to Sanskrit sva-kāya 'own group' or 'own body'.

:shrug:
The suttas say:
But, lady, how does sakkāya come about?"

"There is the case, friend Visakha, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how sakkāya comes about."

"But, lady, how does sakkāya not come about?"

"There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He does not assume feeling to be the self...

"He does not assume perception to be the self...

"He does not assume fabrications to be the self...

"He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how sakkāya does not come about."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

theY
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by theY » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:19 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:40 am
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:15 am
theY wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:16 am
Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes.
This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. These suttas teach:

1. Seeing impermanence is the method for abandoning wrong view (micchādiṭṭhi).

2. Seeing unsatisfactoriness is the method for abandoning identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

3. Seeing not-self is the method for abandoning self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

Why is this teaching given in this manner?
It is wrong translation of metta.lk. The pali of them and anattalakkhaṇasutta are the same. See picture below.

I'm sorry I just read through those 3 suttas, before I answered.

However, you can use my explanation for the other suttas such as aniccasutta, dukkhasutta, and anattasutta in SN Salāyatanavagga.
Screenshot_2018-03-06_12-10-15.png
Screenshot_2018-03-06_12-10-15.png (136.78 KiB) Viewed 340 times
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:31 am

theY wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:19 am
However, you can use my explanation for the other suttas such as aniccasutta, dukkhasutta, and anattasutta in SN Salāyatanavagga.
For me, this does not explain why SN 35.165 to 167 were taught as they were.
165. Micchā­diṭṭhi­pahāna­sutta
“kathaṃ nu kho, bhante, jānato kathaṃ passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyatī”ti? Cakkhuṃ kho, bhikkhu, aniccato jānato passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyati. Rūpe aniccato jānato passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyati. Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ aniccato jānato passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyati. Cak­khu­samphas­saṃ aniccato jānato passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyati … pe … yampidaṃ mano­samphas­sa­pac­cayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ vā tampi aniccato jānato passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyati. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhu, jānato evaṃ passato micchādiṭṭhi pahīyatī”ti.

166. Sakkā­ya­diṭṭhi­pahāna­sutta

“kathaṃ nu kho, bhante, jānato kathaṃ passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyatī”ti? “Cakkhuṃ kho, bhikkhu, dukkhato jānato passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyati. Rūpe dukkhato jānato passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyati. Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ dukkhato jānato passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyati. Cak­khu­samphas­saṃ dukkhato jānato passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyati … pe … yampidaṃ mano­samphas­sa­pac­cayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ vā tampi dukkhato jānato passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyati. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhu, jānato evaṃ passato sakkāyadiṭṭhi pahīyatī”ti.

167. Attā­nudiṭ­ṭhi­pahāna­sutta
“kathaṃ nu kho, bhante, jānato kathaṃ passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyatī”ti? “Cakkhuṃ kho, bhikkhu, anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati. Rūpe anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati. Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati. Cak­khu­samphas­saṃ anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati. Yampidaṃ cak­khu­samphas­sa­pac­cayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ vā tampi anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati … pe … jivhaṃ anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati … pe … manaṃ anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyati. Dhamme … manoviññāṇaṃ … manosamphassaṃ … yampidaṃ mano­samphas­sa­pac­cayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ vā tampi anattato jānato passato attānudiṭṭhi pahīyatī”ti.
The primary question is why does seeing & knowing unsatisfactoriness (dukkhato) particularly lead to abandoning sakkayaditthi? :shrug:

theY
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by theY » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:01 am

I'm sorry I refer to the wrong source.

So, in this case the buddha can predict, because buddha maybe his teacher, the listening-bhikkhu will enlighten by animitta-vimokkha, so the buddha taught impermanence to him. And this bhikku maybe memorized micchādiṭṭhi from buddha before, so the buddha taught micchādiṭṭhi in this sutta. If the buddha teach the other words, they cannot enlighten, because the listening maybe never memorized before.

It looks like when I said หนึ่งคูณสองเท่ากับสอง, you cannot enlighten what I said. But if I said "1x2=2", you can get it.

This is the same way which commentary described SN Salāyatanavagga:
Iti idaṃ suttaṃ chasu ajjhattikāyatanesu tīṇi lakkhaṇāni dassetvā kathite bujjhanakānaṃ ajjhāsayena vuttaṃ.
For these 3 sutta, buddha taught 3 characterizes of 6 inner-āyatana depend on the enlightening-possibility of each listening-bhikkhu.
For more information, you can see naya in netti.

Impermanence may be the direct enemy of micchādiṭṭhi, but I never found the description like that in any canons before.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:15 am
theY wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:16 am
Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes.
This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. These suttas teach:

1. Seeing impermanence is the method for abandoning wrong view (micchādiṭṭhi).

2. Seeing unsatisfactoriness is the method for abandoning identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

3. Seeing not-self is the method for abandoning self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

Why is this teaching given in this manner?
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by theY » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:35 am
theY wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:46 pm
Note1: Sakkāya is not only internal, because there are internal clinging-aggregates, internal sakkāya, and external clinging-aggregates, external sakkāya, which are contemplating by the practitioner in Cūlavedallasutta and Sutta. Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ (<< this link is a good translation of this sutta).
they meditate by observing an aspect of the principle inside and outside.
This is difficult to understand. Above, you seem to say kayanupassana in satipatthana means observing all of the five aggregates rather than only observing the physical groups, such as breathing kaya & rupa kaya (such as when MN 118 says the breathing is a 'kaya' among other kaya).
I wrote "Sutta. Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ". Saccapabba is in dhammānupassanā-satipaṭṭhāna, not kāyānupassanā-satipaṭṭhāna.

Also, Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Sakkāyasutta, which I comparing to MN10, is talking about sacca-pabba in dhammānupassanāsatipaṭṭhāna.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:35 am
Also, the translation of MN 10 is not good. It is terrible. Above, the translation says the aggregates are "grasping" rather than are "grasped" & translates 'sankhara' as 'choices'. Below, the word 'upādā­na' has not been translated into English:
4.2. Dhammā­nu­passa­nā­khan­dha­pabba

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādā­nak­khan­dhesu. Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādā­nak­khan­dhesu

Furthermore, a monastic meditates by observing an aspect of the principles with respect to the five aggregates. And how, monastics, does a monastic meditate by observing an aspect of the principles with respect to the five aggregates?

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn10
In pāli-grammar and vocabulary, grasping is better because it is continuous, so the other translation translated as clinging-aggregates.

For "choice", I don't understand"choice" word enough. Saṅkhārakkhandha means "catukhandhe saṅkharoti-the equipment of the other 4 clinging-aggregates (without saṅkhārakkhandha the other 4 clinging-aggregates, especially viññānakkhandha, can not arise, such as without phassa-paṭiccasamuppāda is no vedanā, without cakkhusamphassa is no chakku-saññā, and without cakkhusamphassa is no cakkhu-mind, etc. This is the reason why they[+saññā+vedanā] are called as cetasika)".

I am not read the whole translated but what I read is:
They meditate by observing the reasons for the origination of the principles; they meditate by observing the reasons for the dissolution of the principles; they meditate by observing the reasons for the origination and dissolution of the principles.
This is very right. The other translated version never translated as readable like that. He/she translated it follow to paṭiccasamuppāda, so in udayabyañāṇa-niddeso of the path of purification describe like in SN nidānavagga āhārasutta which is about paṭiccasamuppāda as well.

The translator maybe have terrible skill in english language, but I think he/she has a very good skill in tipitaka-understanding. Or at least, he/she maybe translated follow to some tipitaka-memorizer.

I want to co-work with him to translate tipitaka. Can some one give me the this translator's contact.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

James Tan
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 am

This is confusing ,

Identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

In English , both are similar .

SarathW
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:49 am

I posted a similar question in Stack Exchange.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... tanuditthi
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

theY
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by theY » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:55 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 am
This is confusing ,

Identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

In English , both are similar .
sakkāyadiṭṭhi and are similar. They are synonym.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:02 pm

:alien:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:13 am, edited 11 times in total.

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