If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:40 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm
Atheists will be in hell or animal womb. Because they reject karma and rebirth.

So heaven is the goal in terms of view.
I have no idea what your talking about, who is an atheist?
I don’t think heaven is the goal, heaven is impermanent state.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:59 pm

The atheist is an example, of doubting karma and rebirth.

And therefore they will be reborn in hell or the animal womb.

And the alternative view, accepting karma and rebirth, leads to heaven.

But atheists, for their doubt, will not enter heaven.

So, safety is accepting karma and rebirth. And heaven is the result perhaps.
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:04 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:59 pm
The atheist is an example, of doubting karma and rebirth.

And therefore they will be reborn in hell or the animal womb.

And the alternative view, accepting karma and rebirth, leads to heaven.

But atheists, for their doubt, will not enter heaven.

So, safety is accepting karma and rebirth. And heaven is the result perhaps.
Then why are atheists born as humans? I’m sure there are plenty of peaceful atheists?
There is no safety in belief, there is safety in experience/wisdom.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Crazy cloud » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm

If one choose to believe in atheism, one is also the only one who's gonna come to the conclusion: I was totally wrong all the time ...!

:mrgreen:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:01 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm
If one choose to believe in atheism, one is also the only one who's gonna come to the conclusion: I was totally wrong all the time ...!

:mrgreen:
So an atheist lacks the belief in the existence of a god or permanent soul. so why can’t an atheist possess wisdom of Annicca, anatta, dhukka?
Why is an atheist wrong all the time?

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 pm

At least from my perspective as a Buddhist, it's not really about god.

Rather it's about the view atheists possess, or that possesses them.

A view about karma, a view about rebirth.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:39 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 pm
At least from my perspective as a Buddhist, it's not really about god.

Rather it's about the view atheists possess, or that possesses them.

A view about karma, a view about rebirth.
What is the view atheist have about karma?

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm

They say, "I don't believe in hell."

Disbelief may lead to hell.

If you can't foresee or infer, learn by suffering.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm
They say, "I don't believe in hell."

Disbelief may lead to hell.

If you can't foresee or infer, learn by suffering.
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm
They say, "I don't believe in hell."

Disbelief may lead to hell.

If you can't foresee or infer, learn by suffering.
So they don’t believe in hell, they could be picturing red horned devil. But I’m sure they can understand if not have experienced extreme anger and the physical sensations that accompany this burning heat, increased respiration, body full of tension and pain, mind caught on a continuous loop of fear, self loathing, horror. This could be equated as hell.

Even buddhists who believe in hell are not spared from hell. Only the enlightened stream enterer and higher are safe from this realm.

I don’t know what you mean by forsee or infer comment?

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Crazy cloud
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:04 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:01 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm
If one choose to believe in atheism, one is also the only one who's gonna come to the conclusion: I was totally wrong all the time ...!

:mrgreen:
So an atheist lacks the belief in the existence of a god or permanent soul. so why can’t an atheist possess wisdom of Annicca, anatta, dhukka?
Why is an atheist wrong all the time?
Usually as I come to know those naming them self "atheist" is just the opposite of a christian and their belief is annihilation. If it's nothing after this life, then none will experience anything, they are all gone. But if they are wrong, that there is a life after this, then these atheist also the only one that must experience: damn, i was wrong!

:)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:26 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:04 am


Usually as I come to know those naming them self "atheist" is just the opposite of a christian and their belief is annihilation. If it's nothing after this life, then none will experience anything, they are all gone. But if they are wrong, that there is a life after this, then these atheist also the only one that must experience: damn, i was wrong!

:)
Did the Buddha teach that at death this consciousness that believes itself to be thepea will bear witness to the rebirth of Thelimabean. Or will thepea die breath his last breath and the next breath will be thelimabean who will carry the same vibrational frequency of thepeas last consciousness but will be unaware of thepea.

Perhaps there will be no “damn I was wrong” moment and the atheist is sort of correct. To me the teaching is for this life and to live at peace and enjoy life with less worry and stress now. The atheist is also free to practice this without belief in karma and rebirth.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:29 am

i don't care what believers do or don't, i just like to poke them a bit sometimes, because they responds often more paranoid than their main enemies

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
Posts: 898
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:41 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:29 am
i don't care what believers do or don't, i just like to poke them a bit sometimes, because they responds often more paranoid than their main enemies

:smile:
Ahh.

pegembara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by pegembara » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:32 am

No, you shouldn't. You should instead care more about becoming dispassionate about stories of the "self" and gaining freedom. Rebirth(stored memories) might well be true but believing in it is not that helpful.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How is this statement to be interpreted?

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:27 am
Thank you, Binocular.
It is a good article.
What it failed to deliver is Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth prevailed in his time.
He did not tech re-birth but taught birth.
What I think is, we still get hold to the old Hindu belief in re-birth as Buddhist.
But as long as one understands this birth still in terms of some "old Hindu belief", then one hasn't really moved away from that "old Hindu belief"; one is just working with a partial version of it.

In the suttas, is "birth" really the same as the one life model? I'm not sure it is.
Our aim as Buddhist should be to be happy in this life.
And for many people, this is not possible with a one lifetime perspective.
SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 am
As my previous post,-Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth and Kamma.
Many of Buddhist still interpret those two terms based on old Hindu philosophy.
We should use the DO based on one life model because there is no person behind our existence.
Such a one life model is still based on "old Hindu philosophy" -- in contrast to it.
because there is no person behind our existence
But do you actually know this, or at least believe or have faith that this is so?
Because it seems to me that if you did know it, or had sufficient faith in it, you wouldn't be having the questions you're having.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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