If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:23 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:33 pm
:focus:
This thread is not about the re-birth.
The question is is it necessary to believe in Kamma and re-birth to attain enlightenment.
How do you practice if there is no Kamma and re-birth?
If there is no kamma and reberth the validity of paticca samuppada cannot be realised. The whole of buddhist practise rests on paticca samuppada.

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:27 am

Thank you, Binocular.
It is a good article.
What it failed to deliver is Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth prevailed in his time.
He did not tech re-birth but taught birth.
What I think is, we still get hold to the old Hindu belief in re-birth as Buddhist.
Our aim as Buddhist should be to be happy in this life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 am

If there is no kamma and reberth the validity of paticca samuppada cannot be realised. The whole of buddhist practise rests on paticca samuppada.
As my previous post,-Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth and Kamma.
Many of Buddhist still interpret those two terms based on old Hindu philosophy.
We should use the DO based on one life model because there is no person behind our existence.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:56 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 am
If there is no kamma and reberth the validity of paticca samuppada cannot be realised. The whole of buddhist practise rests on paticca samuppada.
As my previous post,-Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth and Kamma.
Many of Buddhist still interpret those two terms based on old Hindu philosophy.
We should use the DO based on one life model because there is no person behind our existence.
Dependant origination continues through samsara(in sensual worlds or kama loka) until the reach higher forms to those of nirvana. Physical death in this birth is only a change of phase in samsara. Hence kamma is a force which continues through samsara but not not a force which changes from this life to next life. Yet cuti citta will make certain changes with the realms ( loka) one goes through samsara.

Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:19 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:26 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:22 am
Many can't face the fact of no rebirth.
Rebirth is a difficult, not easy teaching.
To me the idea of complete extinction at death is more difficult than the idea of some kind of continuation or "rebirth".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:22 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 am
You're just atheists who meditate for stress relief, not Buddhists.
Some translate dukkha as "stress", so "stress relief" seems like a valid goal for a Buddhist. As for "atheism", there is no requirement to believe in God for a Buddhist. And if you do believe in God, then Hinduism might be a more suitable option.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:50 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:09 am
thepea wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:34 am
what good is “believing” in kamma and rebirth

Only right view results in good rebirth.
What does that mean, can you explain the relation between right view and the role belief plays in this.
I’m defining belief as in faith.
How does faith in kamma and rebirth liberate one from suffering? It seems like the cars gassed up ready to go but hasn’t left the driveway yet.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:19 pm

Familiarity with the teaching leads to faith.

Faith leads to heaven.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:38 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:19 pm
Familiarity with the teaching leads to faith.

Faith leads to heaven.
Is heaven the goal.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm

Atheists will be in hell or animal womb. Because they reject karma and rebirth.

So heaven is the goal in terms of view.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:40 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm
Atheists will be in hell or animal womb. Because they reject karma and rebirth.

So heaven is the goal in terms of view.
I have no idea what your talking about, who is an atheist?
I don’t think heaven is the goal, heaven is impermanent state.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:59 pm

The atheist is an example, of doubting karma and rebirth.

And therefore they will be reborn in hell or the animal womb.

And the alternative view, accepting karma and rebirth, leads to heaven.

But atheists, for their doubt, will not enter heaven.

So, safety is accepting karma and rebirth. And heaven is the result perhaps.
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:04 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:59 pm
The atheist is an example, of doubting karma and rebirth.

And therefore they will be reborn in hell or the animal womb.

And the alternative view, accepting karma and rebirth, leads to heaven.

But atheists, for their doubt, will not enter heaven.

So, safety is accepting karma and rebirth. And heaven is the result perhaps.
Then why are atheists born as humans? I’m sure there are plenty of peaceful atheists?
There is no safety in belief, there is safety in experience/wisdom.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Crazy cloud » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm

If one choose to believe in atheism, one is also the only one who's gonna come to the conclusion: I was totally wrong all the time ...!

:mrgreen:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:01 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm
If one choose to believe in atheism, one is also the only one who's gonna come to the conclusion: I was totally wrong all the time ...!

:mrgreen:
So an atheist lacks the belief in the existence of a god or permanent soul. so why can’t an atheist possess wisdom of Annicca, anatta, dhukka?
Why is an atheist wrong all the time?

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 pm

At least from my perspective as a Buddhist, it's not really about god.

Rather it's about the view atheists possess, or that possesses them.

A view about karma, a view about rebirth.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:39 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 pm
At least from my perspective as a Buddhist, it's not really about god.

Rather it's about the view atheists possess, or that possesses them.

A view about karma, a view about rebirth.
What is the view atheist have about karma?

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm

They say, "I don't believe in hell."

Disbelief may lead to hell.

If you can't foresee or infer, learn by suffering.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm
They say, "I don't believe in hell."

Disbelief may lead to hell.

If you can't foresee or infer, learn by suffering.
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:44 pm
They say, "I don't believe in hell."

Disbelief may lead to hell.

If you can't foresee or infer, learn by suffering.
So they don’t believe in hell, they could be picturing red horned devil. But I’m sure they can understand if not have experienced extreme anger and the physical sensations that accompany this burning heat, increased respiration, body full of tension and pain, mind caught on a continuous loop of fear, self loathing, horror. This could be equated as hell.

Even buddhists who believe in hell are not spared from hell. Only the enlightened stream enterer and higher are safe from this realm.

I don’t know what you mean by forsee or infer comment?

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Crazy cloud
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:04 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:01 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm
If one choose to believe in atheism, one is also the only one who's gonna come to the conclusion: I was totally wrong all the time ...!

:mrgreen:
So an atheist lacks the belief in the existence of a god or permanent soul. so why can’t an atheist possess wisdom of Annicca, anatta, dhukka?
Why is an atheist wrong all the time?
Usually as I come to know those naming them self "atheist" is just the opposite of a christian and their belief is annihilation. If it's nothing after this life, then none will experience anything, they are all gone. But if they are wrong, that there is a life after this, then these atheist also the only one that must experience: damn, i was wrong!

:)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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