If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:34 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
If I am reborn, it is not me./.../
/.../
If I am reborn it is a different aggregate altogether.
For instance how I was I in last birth is no bearing on me.
But you don't know any of these things, do you?

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm

the tears we had shed since the unknown beginning of our samsara the tears we had shed is greater than the four great oceans by bereavements of our loved ones and other dukka.
My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by santa100 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:09 pm

SarathW wrote:If I am reborn it is a different aggregate altogether.
While the Five Khandhas might be different, the pain and suffering is pretty much the same, if one is not heedful. If John Doe, SarathW's previous rebirth, did some very terrible things to some people such that kamma finally turns around and bite back at the SarathW of today, say, someone stuck a knife into his guts, the pain and suffering would be very real, wouldn't it!

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:18 pm

Say James at last birth is reborn as either Santa or SarathW.
We both in this birth do not know who we were last birth.
If you feel a pain in this birth I would not feel the same and vice versa.
Another point is Kamma is only one factor of five Niyamas.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by santa100 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:32 pm

Another point is Kamma is only one factor of five Niyamas.
Sure, but that's irrelevant to topic of discussion. Based on the question in the OP, if the implied message is that one is free to do all kinds of terrible things in this life just because his Five Aggregates is different from the Aggregates of a previous rebirth, then one's free to do it at his own peril. Just remember that by the time he's had a knife stuck in his guts, I seriously doubt he'd still have the time to ponder whether this pain is the same, or different, or whether these current khandhas are the same or different. Chances are that he'd be writhing on the ground crying for his own mother, regardless if the future khandhas carry a label of Santa, SarathW, John Doe, or whoever, the pain and suffering would be just as real.

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:24 pm

if the implied message is that one is free to do all kinds of terrible things in this life
No.
What I am saying is we can see the result of our action in this life itself.
Irrespective of Kamma or re-birth our good or bad action come to fruition in this life itself.
What we should aim is to make this life what we know to be a happy one for ourselves and others.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:25 pm

the pain and suffering would be just as real.
Even if I become an Arahant in this life the pain and suffering still will be in this world.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:36 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
If I am reborn, it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

What really matters is to be happy in this life.
Now on that occasion the following reflection arose in the mind of a certain bhikkhu: “So it seems that form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, volitional formations are nonself, consciousness is nonself. What self, then, will deeds done by what is nonself affect?”

Then the Blessed One, knowing with his own mind the reflection in the mind of that bhikkhu, addressed the bhikkhus thus: “It is possible, bhikkhus, that some senseless man here, obtuse and ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think that he can outstrip the Teacher’s Teaching thus: ‘So it seems that form is nonself … consciousness is nonself. What self, then, will deeds done by what is nonself affect?’ Now, bhikkhus, you have been trained by me through interrogation here and there in regard to diverse teachings.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.82
I read this sutta now and remembered this topic

these two suttas also

Samyutta Nikaya XXII.99
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.99

Samyutta Nikaya XXII.100
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.100

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Will
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Will » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:47 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
If I am reborn, it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?
If I take the one life model at least I know that if I live tomorrow it is better to save for tomorrow.
I know I have this body tomorrow and I can give it food and shelter.
If I die and reborn there is know that assurance.
If I am reborn it is a different aggregate altogether.
For instance how I was I in last birth is no bearing on me.

In Sri Lanka sometimes we have to wait for about ten years to get fruits from certain plants.
But we plant them for the future generation.
That makes sense for me.

What really matters is to be happy in this life.
Toss aside rebirth and one has to also ignore karma fruits awaiting the next lifetime. The assumption that all karmic fruits (good or bad) arise in this single life is a mistake.

What Sarath is in this life is mainly based on what kamma "Henry" (or whoever named) made in the past life. Same for the next one.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:23 am

What Sarath is in this life is mainly based on what kamma "Henry" (or whoever named) made in the past life.
But I have the free will in this life to be happy here and now but I do not have the option to change my next life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Will
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Will » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:37 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:23 am
What Sarath is in this life is mainly based on what kamma "Henry" (or whoever named) made in the past life.
But I have the free will in this life to be happy here and now but I do not have the option to change my next life.
Depending on if your happiness now is based on living a solid (but not perfect) Sila life, or one based on worldly cravings mainly, that nexus or web of thoughts, words & deeds will definitely change your next life.

What we are now is what our past lives kamma shaped and what our present life's additional kamma is, helps shape the next one.

One does not have to obsess about kamma & rebirth, but I do not see any value in avoiding the truth of them.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:49 am

one based on worldly cravings mainly, that nexus or web of thoughts,
I am not sure a person who based on worldly craving will enjoy a happy life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:25 pm
the pain and suffering would be just as real.
Even if I become an Arahant in this life the pain and suffering still will be in this world.
The mind state of an arhat is free from loba , dosa , moha is of tranquility and equanimity ( with upekka ). As they take up ashta loka darma, labo profit, alobo loss, ayaso defamation, yasoca fame, ninda blames, prasansa praise , sukanca happiness , dukan grief eqally without attachment ( upadana ) they arhats do not suffer from pain or greef in the mind.

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm
the tears we had shed since the unknown beginning of our samsara the tears we had shed is greater than the four great oceans by bereavements of our loved ones and other dukka.
My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am
SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm
the tears we had shed since the unknown beginning of our samsara the tears we had shed is greater than the four great oceans by bereavements of our loved ones and other dukka.
My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
You could more charitably read this as "If we believe this, then we believe it on faith".

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
If I am reborn, it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?
If I take the one life model at least I know that if I live tomorrow it is better to save for tomorrow.
I know I have this body tomorrow and I can give it food and shelter.
If I die and reborn there is know that assurance.
If I am reborn it is a different aggregate altogether.
For instance how I was I in last birth is no bearing on me.

In Sri Lanka sometimes we have to wait for about ten years to get fruits from certain plants.
But we plant them for the future generation.
That makes sense for me.

What really matters is to be happy in this life.
In any case, even with these examples, there may still be some doubt on the matter, so it might be helpful to conclude with a story:
Tit Porngn went to visit the Venerable Abbot of the nearby monastery. At one point, he asked:
“Eh, Luang Por, the Buddha taught that everything is notself, and is without an owner – there is no-one who commits kamma and no-one who receives its results. If that’s the case, then I can go out and hit somebody over the head or even kill them, or do anything I like, because there is no-one committing kamma and no-one receiving its results.”
No sooner had Tit Porng finished speaking, when the Abbot’s walking stick, concealed somewhere unknown to Tit Porng, swung down like a flash. Tit Porng could hardly get his arm up fast enough to ward off the blow. Even so, the walking stick struck squarely in the middle of his arm, giving
it a good bruise.
Clutching his sore arm, Tit Porng said, “Luang Por! Why did you do that?” His voice trembled with the anger that was welling up inside him.
“Oh! What’s the matter?” the Abbot asked offhandedly.
“Why, you hit me! That hurts!”
The Abbot, assuming a tone of voice usually reserved for sermons, slowly murmured: “There is kamma but no-one creating it. There are results of kamma, but no-one receiving them. There is feeling, but no-one experiencing it. There is pain, but no-one in pain … He who tries to use the law of notself for his own selfish purposes is not freed of self; he who clings to not-self is one who clings to self. He does not really know not-self. He who clings to the idea that there is no-one who creates kamma must also cling to the idea that there is one who is in pain. He does not really know that there is noone who creates kamma and no-one who experiences pain.”

The moral of this story is: if you want to say “there is noone who creates kamma,” you must first learn how to stop saying “Ouch!”

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/good_evil_beyond.pdf


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binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:10 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
You could more charitably read this as "If we believe this, then we believe it on faith".
It's not about charitable interpretations. It's about the consequences of what Glenn Wallis and the speculative non-Buddhists call "the buddhistic decision". Namely, many people, when they convert to Buddhism, make "the buddhistic decision", a kind of leap to faith, a leap with which they take for granted that what Buddhism teaches is true. And it is only afterwards that they try to make sense of this decision, hence so much focus on the details, so many questions about doctrine, trying to understand what it actually is that one has decided for, but never questioning the decision itself. That's how there are so many self-proclaimed Buddhists who have huge problems with some of the core doctrines of Buddhism. Hence my earlier reference to the broader context within which one is asking one's questions, and noting how one's efforts can have the nature of an externally imposed compulsion.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:08 pm

Many can't face the fact of rebirth.

A Buddhist is someone who faces the fact.
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:10 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 am
SarathW wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm

My point is we don't no this for a fact. We have to believe this on faith.
Says who? Is that person pointing a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't believe the above on faith? In other words, what I'm getting at is that the broader context within which you're asking your questions appears to be poorly explored, and almost like an externally imposed compulsion.
You could more charitably read this as "If we believe this, then we believe it on faith".
In Mahasaccaka sutta MN35 Lord budda explains that when his mind is unblemished and his mind clear he remembered his past lives and explains it further. Any other person can develop pupbenivasanussati gnana with proper meditation which enables one to develop the mindset to remember the past. No one can doubt this fact when compared to the truths stated by lord budda, and belief in budda need not be faith, but an actual study.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:43 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm

It's not about charitable interpretations.
Well, it could be if you felt a bit more charitable.

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