If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:26 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:04 am


Usually as I come to know those naming them self "atheist" is just the opposite of a christian and their belief is annihilation. If it's nothing after this life, then none will experience anything, they are all gone. But if they are wrong, that there is a life after this, then these atheist also the only one that must experience: damn, i was wrong!

:)
Did the Buddha teach that at death this consciousness that believes itself to be thepea will bear witness to the rebirth of Thelimabean. Or will thepea die breath his last breath and the next breath will be thelimabean who will carry the same vibrational frequency of thepeas last consciousness but will be unaware of thepea.

Perhaps there will be no “damn I was wrong” moment and the atheist is sort of correct. To me the teaching is for this life and to live at peace and enjoy life with less worry and stress now. The atheist is also free to practice this without belief in karma and rebirth.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:29 am

i don't care what believers do or don't, i just like to poke them a bit sometimes, because they responds often more paranoid than their main enemies

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:41 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:29 am
i don't care what believers do or don't, i just like to poke them a bit sometimes, because they responds often more paranoid than their main enemies

:smile:
Ahh.

pegembara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by pegembara » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:32 am

No, you shouldn't. You should instead care more about becoming dispassionate about stories of the "self" and gaining freedom. Rebirth(stored memories) might well be true but believing in it is not that helpful.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How is this statement to be interpreted?

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:27 am
Thank you, Binocular.
It is a good article.
What it failed to deliver is Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth prevailed in his time.
He did not tech re-birth but taught birth.
What I think is, we still get hold to the old Hindu belief in re-birth as Buddhist.
But as long as one understands this birth still in terms of some "old Hindu belief", then one hasn't really moved away from that "old Hindu belief"; one is just working with a partial version of it.

In the suttas, is "birth" really the same as the one life model? I'm not sure it is.
Our aim as Buddhist should be to be happy in this life.
And for many people, this is not possible with a one lifetime perspective.
SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 am
As my previous post,-Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth and Kamma.
Many of Buddhist still interpret those two terms based on old Hindu philosophy.
We should use the DO based on one life model because there is no person behind our existence.
Such a one life model is still based on "old Hindu philosophy" -- in contrast to it.
because there is no person behind our existence
But do you actually know this, or at least believe or have faith that this is so?
Because it seems to me that if you did know it, or had sufficient faith in it, you wouldn't be having the questions you're having.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:08 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm
Atheists will be in hell or animal womb. Because they reject karma and rebirth.
I think you mean materialist, rather than atheist. Belief or disbelief in God isn't relevant here.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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ganegaar
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by ganegaar » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:21 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:00 am
pegembara wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:50 am
davidbrainerd wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:07 am

I'm holding my breath right now and therefore its not just a process that takes place without a will.
Does "your" breathing stop when you fall asleep?...
When you're not purposefully stopping it,....
"Where is the I"? "I" itself is an ever changing set of events (a process) one even after the other, conditioned by various things including previous events.
The thinking, attaching, liking, disliking, greed, hatred... all these are also part of the same process. The "thing" that is "aware" is a set of events taking place rapidly one after the other, just like the breathing is a process, so is the "l".

The "Death" is just a one noticiable "event", it is preceded by a set of events, succeded by another set. In a quantom level, death is no more stranger than any two succesive events in one's life!
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:17 pm

Buddhism denies the identity of being, but affirms the identity of the process.

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/dhp/dhp1.php#N9

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Soul

According to Bronkhorst, referring to Frauwallner, Schmithausen and Bhattacharya,

It is possible that original Buddhism did not deny the existence of the soul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 pm
At least from my perspective as a Buddhist, it's not really about god.
Rather it's about the view atheists possess, or that possesses them.
A view about karma, a view about rebirth.
It isn't about God or atheism at all. :redherring:

Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am
Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.

Yes, atheists are materialists.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:05 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am
Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.

Yes, atheists are materialists.
What, all of them? Does a lack of belief in a deity necessitate being a materialist?

Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:52 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am
Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.
Yes, atheists are materialists.
Materialists are likely to be atheist, but the two terms are certainly not equivalent. And of course lots of Buddhists believe in rebirth, but don't believe in God.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:44 pm

Almost the same.

God is part of Buddhist teaching.

Atheist Buddhists are more atheist than Buddhist.

auto
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by auto » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:49 pm

Abhidhamma

Kamma, Sanskrit karma, literally means volitional action or deed.
As a rule good actions bear good results and bad actions bear
bad results...
Now cetanà and its concomitants (i.e. citta and cetasikas other
than cetanà) perish after performing their respective purposes.
But before they perish, they leave their kammic property in the
citta-stream. This kammic property is the potential kamma which
will produce its due effect in some proper time, and the effect
will fall on the doer himself.

With respect to function, there are four kinds of kamma:
1 Janaka-kamma
Reproductive kamma which produces mental aggregates
and material aggregates at the moment of conception
as well as throughout the life-time of the individual;
2 Upatthambhaka-kamma
Supportive kamma which supports the janaka-kamma as
well as the effect of the janaka-kamma throughout the
life-time of the individual;
3 Upapãëaka-kamma
Obstructive kamma which weakens, interrupts or retards
the fruition of the janaka kamma;
4 Upaghàtaka-kamma
Destructive kamma which not only cuts off the effect of
the janaka kamma but also destroys the janaka kamma
and produce its own effect. In other words, the person
dies abruptly and is reborn in accordance with the
upaghàtaka-kamma.

As an example of the operation of the above four kammas,
the case of Devadatta may be cited. His good janaka-kamma
conditioned him to be born in a royal family. His continued
comforts and prosperity were due to the action of the janakakamma
as well as the supportive kamma. The obstructive kamma
came into play when he was excommunicated from the Saõgha
and subject to much humiliation. Then his serious immoral
kamma causing a schism in the Saügha operated as the
destructive kamma which sent him down to the avãci hell.
---------------------------
With respect to the priority in bearing results, there are four
kinds of kamma:
1 Garuka-kamma
Weighty kamma which is so strong that no other kamma
can stop its function in the next life. In other words, it
certainly produces its results in the next life.
Bad weighty kammas are pa¤cànantariya kamma,
namely, (i) creating a schism in the Saügha, (ii)
wounding a Buddha, (iii) murdering an arahat, (iv)
matricide, and, (v) parricide. Niyata-micchàdiññhi
(permanent false view) is also termed as one of the
weighty kammas.
On the other hand, 5 råpàvacara-kusala kammas and
4 aråpàvacara-kusala kammas are good weighty kammas.
Lokuttara-magga is also a weighty force for it closes the
doors of the four apàya abodes for ever.
2 Asa¤¤à-kamma
Proximate kamma that is performed or remembered just
before death.
3 âciõõa-kamma
Habitual kamma which is performed regularly, or it may
be a kamma which is performed once and is recollected
and remembered all the time.
4 Kañattà-kamma
Unspecified kamma which is done once and soon
forgotten.
Now if we have any garuka-kamma, it will produce its result
when we die and condition our next life.
If we do not have any garuka-kamma, which is often the case,
then we must rely on asa¤¤à-kamma to condition our next life.
--------------------
With respect to the time of taking effect there are four kinds of
kamma:
1 Diññhadhammavedanãya-kamma
Immediately effective kamma which bears fruits in the
present life;
2 Upapajjavedanãya-kamma
Subsequently effective kamma which bears fruits in the
next (second) life;
3 Aparàpariyavedanãya-kamma
Indefinitely effective kamma which bears fruits from
the third life till the last life when the person realizes
Nibbàna;
4 Ahosi-kamma
Defunct kamma which no longer bears fruits.
In studying vãthis, we notice that mahà-kusala citta or akusala
citta functions seven times as javana in normal situations. The
cetanà (volition) associated with the first javana is named
diññhadhammavedanãya-kamma which will produce its result in
this very life. If it does not operate in this life, it becomes defunct.
Devadatta and Cunda were burnt by niraya fire in their
present lives. Poor Kàkavaliya couple, after offering boiled rice
to Venerable Sariputta, became very rich in seven days.

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