If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:08 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm
Atheists will be in hell or animal womb. Because they reject karma and rebirth.
I think you mean materialist, rather than atheist. Belief or disbelief in God isn't relevant here.
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ganegaar
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by ganegaar » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:21 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:00 am
pegembara wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:50 am
davidbrainerd wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:07 am

I'm holding my breath right now and therefore its not just a process that takes place without a will.
Does "your" breathing stop when you fall asleep?...
When you're not purposefully stopping it,....
"Where is the I"? "I" itself is an ever changing set of events (a process) one even after the other, conditioned by various things including previous events.
The thinking, attaching, liking, disliking, greed, hatred... all these are also part of the same process. The "thing" that is "aware" is a set of events taking place rapidly one after the other, just like the breathing is a process, so is the "l".

The "Death" is just a one noticiable "event", it is preceded by a set of events, succeded by another set. In a quantom level, death is no more stranger than any two succesive events in one's life!
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:17 pm

Buddhism denies the identity of being, but affirms the identity of the process.

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/dhp/dhp1.php#N9

:anjali:
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Soul

According to Bronkhorst, referring to Frauwallner, Schmithausen and Bhattacharya,

It is possible that original Buddhism did not deny the existence of the soul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism

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Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 pm
At least from my perspective as a Buddhist, it's not really about god.
Rather it's about the view atheists possess, or that possesses them.
A view about karma, a view about rebirth.
It isn't about God or atheism at all. :redherring:

Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am
Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.

Yes, atheists are materialists.

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Sam Vara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:05 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am
Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.

Yes, atheists are materialists.
What, all of them? Does a lack of belief in a deity necessitate being a materialist?

Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:52 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 am
Your criticism is clearly of a materialist view.
Yes, atheists are materialists.
Materialists are likely to be atheist, but the two terms are certainly not equivalent. And of course lots of Buddhists believe in rebirth, but don't believe in God.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:44 pm

Almost the same.

God is part of Buddhist teaching.

Atheist Buddhists are more atheist than Buddhist.

auto
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by auto » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:49 pm

Abhidhamma

Kamma, Sanskrit karma, literally means volitional action or deed.
As a rule good actions bear good results and bad actions bear
bad results...
Now cetanà and its concomitants (i.e. citta and cetasikas other
than cetanà) perish after performing their respective purposes.
But before they perish, they leave their kammic property in the
citta-stream. This kammic property is the potential kamma which
will produce its due effect in some proper time, and the effect
will fall on the doer himself.

With respect to function, there are four kinds of kamma:
1 Janaka-kamma
Reproductive kamma which produces mental aggregates
and material aggregates at the moment of conception
as well as throughout the life-time of the individual;
2 Upatthambhaka-kamma
Supportive kamma which supports the janaka-kamma as
well as the effect of the janaka-kamma throughout the
life-time of the individual;
3 Upapãëaka-kamma
Obstructive kamma which weakens, interrupts or retards
the fruition of the janaka kamma;
4 Upaghàtaka-kamma
Destructive kamma which not only cuts off the effect of
the janaka kamma but also destroys the janaka kamma
and produce its own effect. In other words, the person
dies abruptly and is reborn in accordance with the
upaghàtaka-kamma.

As an example of the operation of the above four kammas,
the case of Devadatta may be cited. His good janaka-kamma
conditioned him to be born in a royal family. His continued
comforts and prosperity were due to the action of the janakakamma
as well as the supportive kamma. The obstructive kamma
came into play when he was excommunicated from the Saõgha
and subject to much humiliation. Then his serious immoral
kamma causing a schism in the Saügha operated as the
destructive kamma which sent him down to the avãci hell.
---------------------------
With respect to the priority in bearing results, there are four
kinds of kamma:
1 Garuka-kamma
Weighty kamma which is so strong that no other kamma
can stop its function in the next life. In other words, it
certainly produces its results in the next life.
Bad weighty kammas are pa¤cànantariya kamma,
namely, (i) creating a schism in the Saügha, (ii)
wounding a Buddha, (iii) murdering an arahat, (iv)
matricide, and, (v) parricide. Niyata-micchàdiññhi
(permanent false view) is also termed as one of the
weighty kammas.
On the other hand, 5 råpàvacara-kusala kammas and
4 aråpàvacara-kusala kammas are good weighty kammas.
Lokuttara-magga is also a weighty force for it closes the
doors of the four apàya abodes for ever.
2 Asa¤¤à-kamma
Proximate kamma that is performed or remembered just
before death.
3 âciõõa-kamma
Habitual kamma which is performed regularly, or it may
be a kamma which is performed once and is recollected
and remembered all the time.
4 Kañattà-kamma
Unspecified kamma which is done once and soon
forgotten.
Now if we have any garuka-kamma, it will produce its result
when we die and condition our next life.
If we do not have any garuka-kamma, which is often the case,
then we must rely on asa¤¤à-kamma to condition our next life.
--------------------
With respect to the time of taking effect there are four kinds of
kamma:
1 Diññhadhammavedanãya-kamma
Immediately effective kamma which bears fruits in the
present life;
2 Upapajjavedanãya-kamma
Subsequently effective kamma which bears fruits in the
next (second) life;
3 Aparàpariyavedanãya-kamma
Indefinitely effective kamma which bears fruits from
the third life till the last life when the person realizes
Nibbàna;
4 Ahosi-kamma
Defunct kamma which no longer bears fruits.
In studying vãthis, we notice that mahà-kusala citta or akusala
citta functions seven times as javana in normal situations. The
cetanà (volition) associated with the first javana is named
diññhadhammavedanãya-kamma which will produce its result in
this very life. If it does not operate in this life, it becomes defunct.
Devadatta and Cunda were burnt by niraya fire in their
present lives. Poor Kàkavaliya couple, after offering boiled rice
to Venerable Sariputta, became very rich in seven days.

Dinsdale
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:39 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:44 pm
God is part of Buddhist teaching.
“No God, no Brahma can be found, no maker of this wheel of life, just bare phenomena roll, depend on conditions all.”
Visuddhi-Magga
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:07 pm


auto
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by auto » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:23 pm

I don't get people who think there is no rebirth and no self....

it its also like with thinking you can't beat sensual desire, like desire to drink coffee is unbeatable, you can do it, but it will return.

Its like immortality, you can be immortal for 100 years, but then it ends, some condition becomes ripe and you will die despite of being immortal for 100 years nothing could kill you.

Things
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Things » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:51 pm

Basically everything we consider as self are born persists and die, over and over again withing an incredibly short peripd of time. Self is just the matter ( rupa) which the body consists of, and the mind ( includes ”chittha” and ”chaithasika”). In a given moment there are a cluster of ”rupa”, a mind consist of a single ”chittha” with number of ”chaithasika”, all three together we refer to as a person. In the next moment all those will vanish and a new set of rupa chittha and chaithasika will born. We dont see much of a difference of the person with every moment just becose the newly borned chittha chaithasika and rupa acquire the features of threre previosly vanished generation.
Therefore a person is not a single entity but a endless generation of above mentioned things.
Now its easy to understand, in a new birth its nothing but the same generation of those three things which is to continue. Everything You perseive as ”yourself” will be there at the new birth and you take that as yourself without a difference..
I can explain it in an example.
Think your this life as a journey between two railway stations in an express train. Every single time you change your position on the railway from the first station. when the train reachs the second station it just passes the station heading the third station and while its the same ” you” travel. Passing Second station was just a symbol anyway you were moving.

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:56 am

If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?
Today I felt that I was a very selfish man to think this way.
If I know that there will be another five aggregate who will suffer due to my present action, I have the responsibility to stop that happening. My action is not to fulfill my future Dukkha. My action is to avoid the suffering of another being.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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