Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dharmacorps
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 am

final enlightenment.
Which a nihilist wouldn't reach because of wrong view.

SarathW
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am

Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:25 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am
Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.
But what was quoted is Right View in Buddhism, taught by the Arahant General Venerable Sariputta. :|

Are you saying the Buddha was a nihilist for teaching impermanence?
So saying, bhikkhus, so proclaiming, I have been baselessly, vainly, falsely, and wrongly misrepresented by some recluses and brahmins thus: ‘The recluse Gotama is one who leads astray; he teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the extermination of an existing being.’ As I am not, as I do not proclaim, so have I been baselessly, vainly, falsely, and wrongly misrepres ented by some recluses and brahmins thus: ‘The recluse Gotama is one who leads astray; he teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the extermination of an existing being.’

“Bhikkhus, both formerly and now what I teach is suffering and the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn22
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nwad
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by Nwad » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:16 am
Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 am
I like yours topics
But are these topics Buddhist?
Hello Doo :)
These topics are about dukkha and its cessation so yes !
What is buddhist topic from your point of view?

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DooDoot
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:28 am

Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:27 am
What is buddhist topic from your point of view?
Nihilism is a Buddhist topic but SarathW seems to be posting their own ideas.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Nwad
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by Nwad » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:28 am
Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:27 am
What is buddhist topic from your point of view?
Nihilism is a Buddhist topic but SarathW seems to be posting their own ideas.
So by "thinking and reflectng on Dhamma" he ceased to be a buddhist? :(

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DooDoot
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:33 am

Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:31 am
So by "thinking and reflectng on Dhamma" he ceased to be a buddhist? :(
When I post a quote from the Arahants, SarathW says the quote is nihilistic atheism, such as:
SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am
Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.

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Nwad
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by Nwad » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:33 am
Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:31 am
So by "thinking and reflectng on Dhamma" he ceased to be a buddhist? :(
When I post a quote from the Arahants, SarathW says the quote is nihilistic atheism, such as:
SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am
Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.
Oh i see !
Actualy i think thatvnihilist are the same views about anicca and anatta, not dukkha, and only on conceptial level. But as these views are conceptial, not direct, so reflecting about anicca/anatta an atheist will perform all kind of sensual pleasure activities...

Actualy as i said in the topic about survivalism: 3 marks of phenomenas should be concidered in a whole to lead to wholesomes states of mind, if someone concider only anicca - he become a survivalist, if he concider only dukkha - he become dipressed and suicide, if he concider only anatta - he become materialist or other...
So as i understand it an atheist conceptualy understands anicca and anatta, but not sees dukkha...

I can be wrong !;)

justindesilva
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:18 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:33 am
Nwad wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:31 am
So by "thinking and reflectng on Dhamma" he ceased to be a buddhist? :(
When I post a quote from the Arahants, SarathW says the quote is nihilistic atheism, such as:
SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am
Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.
Can a nihilist understand paticca samuppada. It explains conditioning of conversion of energy which we are in a non ending cycle . According to the theory of concervation of mass universally nothing is annihilated.
In fact paticca samuppada explains anicca which means momentary change of energy. Anicca is neither total destruction or annihilation of matter or energy . feeling perception fabrication and consciouness are the events which take place with mind ( nama) in the process of anicca or momentary change of a being . Therefore there is no annihilation existing with anicca and dukka. One who can eradicate tanha or clinging ( upadana) can break the cycle in paticca samuppada to claim liberation from suffering.
Hence even a nihilist or atheist if is able to develop non clinging or alobha will be of good morals for a good rebirth.

binocular
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:09 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:10 am
A nihilist doesn't think anything matters ultimately, so you would have to look at the degree to which they held or espoused this view. It wouldn't follow that they would do good things or be good people because there is no reason in their view to be found for doing so. I doubt true nihilists could have good actions or generate good kamma.
And if they would do good actions, they would be accidental, unintended.

- - -
polarbear101 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:01 pm
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:03 pm
To begin with, there can be no such thing as a "good nihilist". All nihilists are amoral.
That's not true, one could be an existential nihilist but not a moral nihilist. For example, all buddhists could be construed as such.

The idea that consciousness ceases at death is not nihilism, annihilationism is a better term. People conflate these two it seems because one of the annihilationists back in the Buddha's day held the view that annihiliationism implies moral nihilism, but other annihilationists would disagree, for example many modern-day ethicists.
I don't think that annihilationist back then was so powerful to cause millennia of such conflation! Rather, I think that conflation occurs because in a one-lifetime framework, it appears to be impossible to devise a justification for moral behavior that is also sufficiently motivating for people to actually act on it consistently and intentionally.

For example, one of the reasons why people have difficulty to act in ecologically sustainable ways appears to be that they don't see themselves being reborn in the future, into the polluted environment they are creating today. Many people say things like, "Oh, but by the time the oil runs out, I'll be long dead, so I needn't worry about that, and can freely drive an SUV."

binocular
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:41 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am
Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.
Some atheists, yes, but not all. In contrast, there are, for example, people who are both epicurean and atheist, and they don't think that some feelings and perceptions are stressful; they think they are enjoyable.

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dylanj
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by dylanj » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:44 am

wrong view. right view is the first step of the path. it's not possible for one with right view to properly complete any other part of the path.
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

SarathW
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:03 am

right view is the first step of the path.
This also another view.
What I am saying is modern atheist can have the same view without accepting rebirth and Kamma.
Perhaps the atheist will agree with the one life model of the rebirth and Kamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:06 am

Someone wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 am
Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
I think atheists have the same view.
In letter but not in meaning. Venerable Sariputta is talking about Rupa, Vedana, Sankharas as the First Noble Truth which automatically assumes existence of Deathless and The 3rd Noble Truth.

This is not at all what an Atheist talks about when he/she use those words, even if it sounds the same, if asked for definitions it will be clear that the meaning is something else entirely.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:15 am, edited 6 times in total.
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How to Meditate: Vipassana Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors & Perceptions
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"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."

justindesilva
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:08 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:03 am
right view is the first step of the path.
This also another view.
What I am saying is modern atheist can have the same view without accepting rebirth and Kamma.
Perhaps the atheist will agree with the one life model of the rebirth and Kamma.
One who does not believe in rebirth and kamma will not be scared to act immorally. And such a person cannot have any desire to reach the stage of nibbana.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:19 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:03 am
right view is the first step of the path.
This also another view.
What I am saying is modern atheist can have the same view without accepting rebirth and Kamma.
Perhaps the atheist will agree with the one life model of the rebirth and Kamma.
A decent Bible quote Matthew 7:5;
You hypocrite, first take the wooden log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
How to Destroy any addiction - Ven. Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu
How to Meditate: Vipassana Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors & Perceptions
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."

pegembara
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by pegembara » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:09 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:53 am
Depends on whether the modern-day atheist feels or perceives that things are happening to him.
I think modern-day atheist think that the body is like the simile of the chariot.
At death, all the aggregate goes back to earth or whatever.
He still feels that aging and sickness is happening to him although intellectually he may reason otherwise. He is still not freed from the view of a self that only live once. So let's make full use of this one life. He is not finished with the business of living and relishing pleasurable experiences.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by binocular » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:35 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:19 am
A decent Bible quote Matthew 7:5;
You hypocrite, first take the wooden log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Because a discussion forum is not for discussion!
:yingyang:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why a good nihilist experience rebirth?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:40 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:35 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:19 am
A decent Bible quote Matthew 7:5;
You hypocrite, first take the wooden log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Because a discussion forum is not for discussion!
:yingyang:
do you want to discuss this or are you just throwing random remarks with nasty implications?
How to Destroy any addiction - Ven. Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu
How to Meditate: Vipassana Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors & Perceptions
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."

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