A few questions...

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Paul Howard
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A few questions...

Post by Paul Howard » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:49 pm

Hi all,

Whilst my personal practice is still in its infancy I had a few queries on which I hoped fellow forum members may grant me some clarification.I meditate when possible during my daily schedule and have been reading the Dhammapada, which I have greatly enjoyed.

Firstly, it seems to me that to dedicate ones life to Dhamma practice fully, one needs to at least spend some time as an ordained monk/nun thus concentrating wholly on the Lord Buddha’s teachings, meditation and living as Buddha did himself. Is it possible to reach Nibbana without doing so? I’ve a partner and children, but would love to ordain should it be a realistic option. Also, is ordaining in the 21st century as pure and simplistic as it always has been or are things very different today? How does one negotiate language barriers or are international monestaries as pure and effective as more traditional ones?

At the moment, the only Buddhist centre in my area is of Tibetan origin. Is there any harm in me attending with the view that all Dhamma leads to one point or will it distort the Theravadan material I currently study?

I’m sure these questions will have come up in the early days of people’s practice but any guidance is greatly received!

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dylanj
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Re: A few questions...

Post by dylanj » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:02 pm

Paul Howard wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:49 pm
Firstly, it seems to me that to dedicate ones life to Dhamma practice fully, one needs to at least spend some time as an ordained monk/nun thus concentrating wholly on the Lord Buddha’s teachings, meditation and living as Buddha did himself. Is it possible to reach Nibbana without doing so?
It is not possible to attain nibbāna in this present life without giving up the household life (& everything else). It is possible to attain lower stages of awakening where one has for themselves seen the goal & is guaranteed arahantship in future lives.

These stages are:
  • Sotāpanna - stream-entrant
  • Sakadāgāmi - once-returner
  • Anāgāmi - non-returner
  • Arahant

The first will finish the path within the next 7 lives. The second will be reborn in the deva realms, pass away from there, be reborn as a human & in that state finish the path. The third will be reborn in the brahmā pure abodes & finish the path in that life.

Their "awakening" manifests as the removal of some but not all of the fetters.
AN 10.13 wrote:"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."
The stream-entrant will remove the first 3 of the lower 5 fetters forever. The once-returner will attenuate the remaining of the lower 5, i.e. sensual-desire & ill-will, to a bare minimum. The non-returner has removed all of the lower 5 fetters. The arahant, of course, has removed them all.

You can attain the first two stages while living in a household with a spouse & children. To attain the third you need to abstain from sexual activity.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: A few questions...

Post by dylanj » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:05 pm

Paul Howard wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:49 pm
Also, is ordaining in the 21st century as pure and simplistic as it always has been or are things very different today? How does one negotiate language barriers or are international monestaries as pure and effective as more traditional ones?
I think much of modern Buddhist monasticism is very corrupt. The best way to go about this would be to develop a deep understanding of the Dhamma so that one can easily identify where the conditions for practice are ideal.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: A few questions...

Post by dylanj » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:07 pm

Paul Howard wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:49 pm
At the moment, the only Buddhist centre in my area is of Tibetan origin. Is there any harm in me attending with the view that all Dhamma leads to one point or will it distort the Theravadan material I currently study?
I say don't go there. Tibetan Buddhism arose about a millenium after the Buddha died & is heavily influenced by Hinduism, with many interpretations of the Dhamma that contradict the way the Buddha taught it. While Theravāda is not utterly free of revisionism & apocrypha, it's very minimal & just a little research on "Early Buddhism" will allow one to navigate that.
DN 21 wrote:Then Sakka, having delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words, asked him a further question: "Dear sir, do all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"

"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"Why, dear sir, don't all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"

"The world is made up of many properties, various properties. Because of the many & various properties in the world, then whichever property living beings get fixated on, they become entrenched & latch onto it, saying, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"But, dear sir, are all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"

"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

"But why, dear sir, are not all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"

"Those monks who are released through the total ending of craving are the ones who are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate. This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

Thus the Blessed One answered, having been asked by Sakka the deva-king. Gratified, Sakka was delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words: "So it is, O Blessed One. So it is, O One Well-gone. Hearing the Blessed One's answer to my question, my doubt is now cut off, my perplexity is overcome."
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: A few questions...

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:12 pm

Sotapanna when attaining Path also directly realizes 4 Noble Truths which is refered to as arising of the Eye of Wisdom, Nibbana with residue. Supramundane absorbtion, phala. Parinibbana is the final Nibbana without residue. Cleared post of speculation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html Canki Sutta: With Canki
....
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. Butit is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. We regard this as the safeguarding of the truth. But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."


"There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.


"Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth."

"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."
lay people can do it too but one will have to emulate the perfect One's to one's best ability at home and it is hard to maintain a practice without support and more so if people work against you.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: A few questions...

Post by DNS » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:28 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:02 pm
It is not possible to attain nibbāna in this present life without giving up the household life (& everything else). It is possible to attain lower stages of awakening where one has for themselves seen the goal & is guaranteed arahantship in future lives.
It is possible to attain enlightenment / nibbana as a lay person, it is just generally accepted in Theravada that once a lay person attains it, he/she ordains.

The Commentaries mention some lay followers who attained full enlightenment, such as Uggasena who was a lay man with the householder responsibilities with family and work as an acrobat in side shows.

The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"
Milindapanha III.19

Bahiya was not a bhikkhu when he attained full-enlightenment. (And then died, passed into parinibbana that same day.)

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Re: A few questions...

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:31 pm

Paul Howard wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:49 pm
Firstly, it seems to me that to dedicate ones life to Dhamma practice fully, one needs to at least spend some time as an ordained monk/nun thus concentrating wholly on the Lord Buddha’s teachings, meditation and living as Buddha did himself. Is it possible to reach Nibbana without doing so?
While I think officially ordaining is not really necessary to make the 'breakthrough', I think spending extensive time in a monastic or secluded environment is necessary.
I’ve a partner and children, but would love to ordain should it be a realistic option.
While you obviously have responsibilities, at an opportune time, you could spend a few months in a monastery as a layperson to test the waters.
At the moment, the only Buddhist centre in my area is of Tibetan origin. Is there any harm in me attending with the view that all Dhamma leads to one point or will it distort the Theravadan material I currently study?
As long as you are clear in your views, visiting a Tibetan centre is OK, as long as you can 'filter-out' whatever Tibetan views that might be antagonistic to you & as long as you have the self-control & wisdom to avoid any potential public disputes. I have enjoyed visiting certain Tibetan centres (FPMT); finding them very respectful to me (although found NKT slightly but harmlessly cultish).

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Re: A few questions...

Post by dylanj » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:40 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:28 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:02 pm
It is not possible to attain nibbāna in this present life without giving up the household life (& everything else). It is possible to attain lower stages of awakening where one has for themselves seen the goal & is guaranteed arahantship in future lives.
It is possible to attain enlightenment / nibbana as a lay person, it is just generally accepted in Theravada that once a lay person attains it, he/she ordains.

The Commentaries mention some lay followers who attained full enlightenment, such as Uggasena who was a lay man with the householder responsibilities with family and work as an acrobat in side shows.

The Milindapanha mentions by implication that lay people can attain full enlightenment:

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna"
Milindapanha III.19

Bahiya was not a bhikkhu when he attained full-enlightenment. (And then died, passed into parinibbana that same day.)
I said "without giving up the household life" because yes, you do not need ordination as a Buddhist monastic to attain arahantship. But everyone who did not meet this condition & yet became an arahant in the suttas had renounced the household life. Bāhiya et al were full-time homeless ascetics. If they are considered lay people then it is right to say lay people can become arahants. However they are not householders, & there are no householders who became arahants in the suttas.

Based on this I find the commentarial view of people such as Suddhodana attaining arahantship to be unviable.

Image

MN 71

Image

Snp 2.14

Based on this I will actually reject the commentarial view, full-stop.
Last edited by dylanj on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: A few questions...

Post by DNS » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:02 pm

There are some passages in the Anguttara Nikaya that appear to suggest householders attaining enlightenment. Here's one of them:
012.04. Bhikkhus, the householders Bhallika, ... re ... Sudatta, ... re ... Anāthapiṇḍika, ... re ... Citta, ... re ... Macchikāsandika, ... re ... Hatthaka Aalavaka, ... re ... Mahanama the Sakya, ... re ... Ugga the householder of Vesali, ... re ... the householder Ugga, ... re ... Sura Ambattha, ... re ... Jīvaka Komarabacca, ... re ... the householder Nakula ... re ... the householder Tavakannika, ... re ... the houeholders Purana and Isidatta. The householders Sandhana, ... re ... Vijaya, ... re ... Vajjiyamahita, ... re ... Mendaka. The disciples Vasettha ... re ... Arittha, ... re ... Saragga, endowed with six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves.
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html
"has seen deathlessness realized the highest"

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Re: A few questions...

Post by perkele » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:17 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:02 pm
There are some passages in the Anguttara Nikaya that appear to suggest householders attaining enlightenment. Here's one of them:
//...//
"has seen deathlessness realized the highest"
I doubt the accuracy of this (but not only this) translation, and I don't believe that the sutta was supposed to refer to any realization beyond stream-entry. (But I don't understand any Pali.)

In Ven. Nyanatiloka's German translation, the expression is "has seen the deathless and lives in realization of the deathless" (which also, to me, sounds like realization of nibbana to the fullest extent, but not so definitive (no mention of "realization of the highest"), so there is more room for interpretation).
I think it can be and has been said in other suttas about sotapannas that they "have seen the deathless". Not sure to what extent they "live in realization of the deathless", and what exactly the original Pali expression for this was.

The sutta lists six qualities, endowed with which, householder xyz "has seen the deathless and lives in realization of the deathless" (according to Ven. Nyanatiloka's German translation - the accuracy of which I also doubt). Three of the six attributes describe unshakable faith in the triple gems. An arahat would not need any faith. The others are "noble virtue", "noble knowledge/realization", and "noble release". I think these attributes can all also be ascribed to a stream-entrant, although not to the fullest extent. But there is no mention here of "fullest extent" or "realized the highest", as it is in Sister Uppalavanna's translation.

Here are German translation (by Ven. Nyanatiloka), English translation (by me, from the German by Ven. Nyanatiloka), and Pali for AN 6.119 next to each other:
AN 6.119 wrote: [German translation by Ven. Nyanatiloka]
Mit sechs Eigenschaften ausgestattet, ihr Mönche, hat der Hausvater Tapussa Gewißheit erlangt hinsichtlich des Vollendeten, hat das Todlose geschaut und lebt in der Verwirklichung des Todlosen.

------------------------

(English, based on German translation by Bhikkhu Nyanatiloka)
Endowed with six attributes, monks, the house father Tapussa has attained certainty with regard to the perfect one, has seen the deathless and lives in realization of the deathless.

------------------------

(Pali)
“Chahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato tapusso gahapati tathāgate niṭṭhaṅgato amataddaso amataṃ sacchikatvā iriyati.
Dictionary wrote:Chahi - six
bhikkhave - bhikkhus (address)
dhammehi - attributes?
samannāgato - endowed with
tapusso - Tapusso (name of the householder)
gahapati - householder
tathāgate - "perfect one", "thus gone", Tathagata (the Buddha)
niṭṭhaṅgato - has reached perfection (translated by Google from Russian to English :P) - I wonder whether this word is used in relation to the Buddha or to the householder here. I assume the former.
...
... oh, just found this post by Bhikkhu Sujato on SuttaCentral, quoting Bhikkhu Bodhi refuting the interpretation of "lay arahat" with a word-by-word analysis of the Pali. Exactly what I was trying to accomplish, but without knowing Pali myself. So I'll just leave it at that and refer to Ven. Bodhi's analysis.
------------------------

(German, Nyanatiloka trans.)
Welches sind diese sechs Eigenschaften?
  • Unerschütterliches Vertrauen zum Erleuchteten,
  • unerschütterliches Vertrauen zur Lehre,
  • unerschütterliches Vertrauen zur Mönchsgemeinde,
  • edle Sittlichkeit,
  • edle Erkenntnis und
  • edle Befreiung.
------------------------

(English, based on Nyanatiloka trans.)
Which are these six properties?
  • Unshakable faith in the Enlightened One,
  • Unshakable faith in the teaching,
  • Unshakable faith in the community of monks,
  • noble virtue,
  • noble knowledge/realization and
  • noble release.


------------------------

(Pali)
Katamehi chahi?
  • Buddhe aveccap­pasā­dena,
  • dhamme aveccap­pasā­dena,
  • saṃghe aveccap­pasā­dena,
  • ariyena sīlena,
  • ariyena ñāṇena,
  • ariyāya vimuttiyā.


Imehi kho, bhikkhave, chahi dhammehi samannāgato tapusso gahapati tathāgate niṭṭhaṅgato amataddaso amataṃ sacchikatvā iriyatī”ti.
(Repetition of first sentence, missing in German translation.)
So, in conclusion, I think it has been shown by Bhikkhu Bodhi, quoted in this post on SuttaCentral, that the lay arahat interpretation does not hold water. Possibly this interpretation was popularized at first by Ven. Nyanatiloka's German translation, which also makes it sound like speaking of lay arahats.

And the passages quoted by dylanj above alone seem also sufficient and definitive and conclusive enough to refute the lay arahat interpretation.

I would suggest, revising this entry on DhammaWiki, given the strong counter-evidence to that interpretation.

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Re: A few questions...

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:27 am

To complement the post i made above in regards to the Residue factor;
https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44

Itivuttaka: The Buddha’s Sayings

The Section of the Twos
44. The Nibbāna-element

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”
this is not a good translation imo
i have a better one in russian, translates Fuel for Residue and also emphasises the death as exhastion of fuel in the ladder.

Итивуттака https://suttacentral.net/ru/iti44

Двойки

Ниббана дхату сутта
44. Элемент ниббаны

Так было сказано Благословенным, сказано Арахантом, и так я слышала:

«Монахи, есть две эти формы свойства ниббаны. Какие две? Свойство ниббаны с остаточным топливом, и свойство ниббаны без остаточного топлива.

И что такое свойство ниббаны с остаточным топливом? Вот монах—арахант, чьи загрязнения окончены, который достиг осуществления, выполнил задачу, cбросил тяжкий груз, достиг истинной цели, разорвал путы становления, и освободился за счёт правильного знания. Его пять качеств чувств всё ещё остаются, и, поскольку они находятся в целости, он воспринимает приятное и неприятное, чувствует удовольствие и боль. Окончание его страсти, злости, и заблуждения называется свойством ниббаны с остаточным топливом.

И что такое свойство ниббаны без остаточного топлива? Вот монах—арахант, чьи загрязнения окончены, который достиг осуществления, выполнил задачу, сбросил тяжкий груз, достиг истинной цели, разорвал путы становления, и освободился за счёт правильного знания. Для него [в момент смерти] всё то, что ощущается, не имея подпитки, прямо здесь и угаснет. Это называется свойством ниббаны без остаточного топлива». Таково значение того, что сказал Благословенный. И в отношении этого было сказано:

«Это было провозглашено тем, кто видит—
Свойства ниббаны того, кто независим, того, кто Таков:
Одно свойство—в этой самой жизни с остаточным топливом,
[Происходящее] из уничтожения проводника к становлению;
И [иное свойство]—без остаточного топлива, после завершения жизни—
В котором всякое становление полностью прекращается.
У того, кто знает это несоставное состояние,
Ум освобождён уничтожением проводника к становлению.
Он, достигая сути Учения, доволен окончанием.
Отбросивший всякое становление, он Таков».

Это также было сутью того, что сказал Благословенный, и так я слышала.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A few questions...

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:30 am

Even if we reject the idea that lay arahants are mentioned in the suttas, there is still the Commentaries, which definitely mention lay arahants.

For example:
2. Uggasena.– Son of a banker of Rājagaha. He fell in love with a very skilful acrobat, married her and followed her about with her troupe. When he discovered that she despised him for his lack of skill as an acrobat, he learnt the art and became a clever tumbler. The Buddha knew that Uggasena was ready for conversion and entering Rājagaha while Uggasena was displaying his skill before a large crowd of people, withdrew their attention from his skilful feats. Seeing Uggasena’s disappointment, the Buddha sent Mahā-Moggallāna to ask him to continue his performance, and while Uggasena was displaying his skill by various tricks, the Buddha taught him, and Uggasena became an Arahant, even as he stood poised on the tip of a pole, and later became a monk. His wife also left the world soon after and attained Arahantship.

In the time of Kassapa Buddha they were husband and wife. On their way to the shrine of the Buddha where they worked as labourers, they saw an elder and gave him part of the food they had with them and expressed the desire that they should, one day, like him, realise the Truth. The elder, looking into the future, saw that their wish would be fulfilled and smiled. The wife, seeing him smile, said to her husband that the elder must be an actor, and the husband agreed. Because of this remark they became actors in this life, but through their pious gift they attained Arahantship. DhA.iv.59‑65; also ibid., 159.
http://aimwell.org/DPPN/uggasena.html

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Re: A few questions...

Post by perkele » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:34 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:30 am
Even if we reject the idea that lay arahants are mentioned in the suttas, there is still the Commentaries, which definitely mention lay arahants.
I do not contradict the commentary position that on rare occasion a layperson may even attain full enlightenment very suddenly, whereupon he would have to adopt a renunciant lifestyle, because entangled lay life would simply not fit anymore with his purity.

I'm just saying that it seems to me the interpretation of AN 6.119 and following suttas which you brought forth here and on DhammaWiki, according to which all those mentioned householders were arahats who lived a householder's life, seems to be clearly wrong (and the translations quoted seem to be a bit off, being suggestive of such wrong interpretation, at the very least).

And Bhikkhu Bodhi gave a very clear refutation of that wrong interpretation, detailing contradicting accounts of mentioned householders' developments from other sources, as well as translating and discussing key terms in the sutta, which have been wrongly interpreted as attributing arahatship, explaining how the description for an arahat would differ.

I copy-paste Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on those suttas here from the thread on SuttaCentral about this topic where it was quoted:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:It is often claimed that this series of suttas testifies to a large number of lay arahants during the Buddha’s time. This, however, is a misunderstanding. For we find on this list Anāthapiṇḍika, Pūraṇa (or Purāṇa), and Isidatta, all of whom were reborn in the Tusita heaven (see AN 6:44 and MN 143.16, III 262,1). We also find Ugga of Vesālī, who is said (at AN 5:44) to have been reborn among the mind-made deities, and Hatthaka, who is said (at AN 3:127) to have been reborn in the Aviha heaven of the pure abodes. The terms used to describe these lay followers are descriptive of all noble ones from stream-enterers on up. They all have unwavering confidence (aveccappasāda) in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, have “reached certainty about the Tathāgata” (tathāgate niṭṭhaṅgata), and are seers of nibbāna, the deathless (amataddasa). See AN 10:63, where certainty about the Buddha is ascribed to disciples at levels lower than arahantship. The statement that these people have noble liberation (ariyena vimuttiyā) is unusual, but Mp glosses it “by the liberation of the fruit of trainees” (sekhaphalavimuttiyā). Quite a different formula is used to describe an arahant. In the Nikāyas there are no recorded cases of laypeople who attained arahantship and then continued to lead the lay life. Those who do attain it entered upon the homeless life soon after their attainment, like Yasa at Vin I 17,1–3.
Would be nice to actually be able to read Ven. Bodhi's translation of these suttas, in addition to his here-quoted note on them.

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Re: A few questions...

Post by perkele » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:48 am

After having gone off-topic already, going one step further up the ladder:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:27 am
this is not a good translation imo
i have a better one in russian, translates Fuel for Residue and also emphasises the death as exhastion of fuel in the ladder.
This is a ladder:
Image

This is a letter:
Image

Which one do you mean, the former or the latter, or neither?

Only joking. :P

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Re: A few questions...

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:53 am

perkele wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:34 am
DNS wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:30 am
Even if we reject the idea that lay arahants are mentioned in the suttas, there is still the Commentaries, which definitely mention lay arahants.
I do not contradict the commentary position that on rare occasion a layperson may even attain full enlightenment very suddenly, whereupon he would have to adopt a renunciant lifestyle, because entangled lay life would simply not fit anymore with his purity.

I'm just saying that it seems to me the interpretation of AN 6.119 and following suttas which you brought forth here and on DhammaWiki, according to which all those mentioned householders were arahats who lived a householder's life, seems to be clearly wrong (and the translations quoted seem to be a bit off, being suggestive of such wrong interpretation, at the very least).
Oh, okay thanks for those links and information. Yes, I'll update the DhammaWiki article. Thanks for the correction. :thumbsup:

It appears there are some rare cases (Commentaries), but no known, confirmed cases in the suttas that anyone can find. But also no categorical statements from the Buddha that it is impossible.

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