Sotapanna and five precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 »

User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:04 am
pinit29 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:44 am
You asked: How do you derive all that from the stuff you have posted ITT or in general, without residue? I actually read/heard from a monk teaching about Characteristics of Sotapanna. This monk is well-known in my country. It is believed that he had attained nibbana.

Sotapanna is the one who walk in the noble path. It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana. Do you see?..They do not have time to fool around especially in the realm of hell.

7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world). And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.

I want to discuss more but I'm kindda busy today. I'll give more comment tonight.
Green could be refuted by asking How is the public to belive that this monk attained the supposed Attainment;
I knew that you are going to ask this question. I was going to clarify it right away but decided not to and leave it just in case you wouldn't ask. Oh well, since you make the note..

In my country, it is believed that the only proof of one being Arahant is that after his death, his Sankhara (compounded things: blood, nails hair, etc) has to become Arahant relic. And this is the case for this monk I was talking about.



User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:04 am
On structure of the argument of the Opposition;

If "X" & "Y "are "true" it does not mean that "Z" is "true", it can make "Z" "possible" or "impossible" if it expresses a statement about Z but it does not prove "Z" to be true in this case.

statement "X";
It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana
Statement "Y";
7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world)
and/or
And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.
Statement "Z"
"Sotapanna cannot break Five Precepts, only this is true, nothing else is possible"
This is what needs to be rightfully established by direct statement or implication using the Tipitaka if you want to prove it is not a view.
This is why I said the topic itself will lead us to square 1. Since the attackers side will only accept concrete evidence such as it has to be said in Suta...

Anyway, the best I can find to persuade you is from Dhama Home website, it said, "Attaining the first stage of Nibbana (Sotapanna stage) will remove suffering in the apayas forever, which could be more than billions or even trillions of years."

By the way, Apayas mean (lower worlds such as hell). I don't know if this make any logic sense to you or not. But for my logic sense, breaking any one of five percepts may lead us to the Apayas realms. Even if it's only one time things of breaking percepts, there still leave some possibilities to fall into Apayas realms. So, the only conclusion for the Sotapanna to have 0% chance of falling into Apayas realms is, not to break any percepts, not even once. Period!


Dhama Home website: https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... or-brahma/
Last edited by pinit29 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud »

Njai ... ;)
I see that you have 411 post since you hatched your way into this place, so maybe better check temperature on your pc .. :tongue:

BTW: Gate keepers are easy and nice tools in practice.

Have a nice day!

Edit: slowfinger! ;)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

pinit29 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:35 am This is why I said the topic itself will lead us to square 1.
"Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."
Do you accept that this position can not be refuted by the Tipitaka in a co-herent manner, unbeatable in that sense?
Last edited by User1249x on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

Crazy cloud wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:42 am Njai ... ;)
I see that you have 411 post since you hatched your way into this place, so maybe better check temperature on your pc .. :tongue:

BTW: Gate keepers are easy and nice tools in practice.

Have a nice day!

Edit: slowfinger! ;)
i used to post before as [name redacted by admin] i think remember you,

have a good day you as well!
pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 »

User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:45 am Do you accept that this position can not be refuted by the Tipitaka in a co-herent manner, unbeatable in that sense?

Well, I haven't thoroughly studied everything in Tripitaka. So, I cannot say that there is or there isn't any Suta talking about this.
User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:45 am"Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it is not about Sotapanna can or cannot break Five percepts. But it's about Sotapanna's choice to choose not to break any percepts no matter what period.

....
I would like to talk about Kamma (Karma) to clarify about Sotapanna's choices... but that might lead us to the whole new topics... so it's better just keep it short as it is...


Just curiousity, are you truely Buddhist? I mean, if you are, I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you have on Buddha's teaching. But if you aren't, and you are non-believer, then I think it is just a waste of my time....
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

pinit29 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 pm I mean, if you are, I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you have on Buddha's teaching.
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 »

User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
pinit29 wrote: I mean, if you are, I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you have on Buddha's teaching.
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
You haven't answered my question yet... :smile:

Are you a believer or non-believer?
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

pinit29 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:15 pm
User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
pinit29 wrote: truely Buddhist
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
You haven't answered my question yet... :smile:

Are you a believer or non-believer?
You probably do not know that in the Dispensation of the Noble Ones believer or non-believer do not make a Buddhist.
Pubbakotthaka Sutta: Eastern Gatehouse
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at the Eastern Gatehouse. There he addressed Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation? Do you take it on conviction that the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?"

"Lord, it's not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.
We ought not to continue with this discussion ITT imo. Already off-topic.
pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 »

User1249x wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
Just read it...You are in deep shi(t) there. Well, not that deep actually. Haha ( not meant to laugh at you)..
Anyway, it's not that clear to me what you're doubting... lets talk over, in that thread.
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manas
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by manas »

I suspect that many of us know deep down, whether or not we still have even the slightest, most infinitesimal skeptical doubt regarding the truth of the Buddha's Teaching. I think that if we had absolutely no skeptical doubt at all, we would indeed be 'incapable' of performing any deed by which we could get reborn in the lower realms, just as someone who is not a masochist, for example, won't willingly step onto an upturned nail, because they know it's going to hurt a lot. (Some food for thought, I hope.)
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User1249x
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by User1249x »

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html Canki Sutta: With Canki
...
"But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.
...
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Alīno
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Alīno »

Sotapanna destroyed, uprooted his personal views, he have no more the belief and experiance of permanent self.
So it is impossible to someone who have no more "i am" cligning to steal somethink or cheat on his wife with thoughts that "this object will be mine now", because the "me" have no power over Sotapanna's mind...

In the same way he can not lie with thoughts "i will say a lie to protect myself from punishment" because there is no "me" who have power over the mind, and he have nothing to hide, his mind is open... Bodily, verbal and mental behavious are pure - he have nothink to lie about, liying for what doing? Saying the truth is always the best solution, peoples are not stupid and if you explain well because of what reasons you acted like this or that - peoples will understand. And if you did somethink with evil intention, and the only explanation of that action is "i want to see some one suffer" that you have to lie about, in that case its a very bad kamma and the best to do is to apologise and make this person your friend and help and protect him...

For someone who saw and touched the Nibbana element in one's mind, even for one moment - it is impossible to destroy any other sentient being life, why? Because he saw the brightness, purity, calm, bliss of the mind and that all sentient beings have the potential to awakening, how now he can destroy their lives?

What is about alcohool, Sotapanna have no need to drink or smoke with thoughts "doing this i will feel happy, light, joyfull, pleasant" because he is already feels good...

Why someone will seek for a match fire while he is on the sunny beach ? Why someone who feel no hungry will eat?

I will not take the debate, sematics/debating/arguing is a void thing bringing suffering and leading nowhere... Its tungle the mind.

Metta
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
Saengnapha
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Saengnapha »

Nwad wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:23 am Sotapanna destroyed, uprooted his personal views, he have no more the belief and experiance of permanent self.
So it is impossible to someone who have no more "i am" cligning to steal somethink or cheat on his wife with thoughts that "this object will be mine now", because the "me" have no power over Sotapanna's mind...

In the same way he can not lie with thoughts "i will say a lie to protect myself from punishment" because there is no "me" who have power over the mind, and he have nothing to hide, his mind is open... Bodily, verbal and mental behavious are pure - he have nothink to lie about, liying for what doing? Saying the truth is always the best solution, peoples are not stupid and if you explain well because of what reasons you acted like this or that - peoples will understand. And if you did somethink with evil intention, and the only explanation of that action is "i want to see some one suffer" that you have to lie about, in that case its a very bad kamma and the best to do is to apologise and make this person your friend and help and protect him...

For someone who saw and touched the Nibbana element in one's mind, even for one moment - it is impossible to destroy any other sentient being life, why? Because he saw the brightness, purity, calm, bliss of the mind and that all sentient beings have the potential to awakening, how now he can destroy their lives?

What is about alcohool, Sotapanna have no need to drink or smoke with thoughts "doing this i will feel happy, light, joyfull, pleasant" because he is already feels good...

Why someone will seek for a match fire while he is on the sunny beach ? Why someone who feel no hungry will eat?

I will not take the debate, sematics/debating/arguing is a void thing bringing suffering and leading nowhere... Its tungle the mind.

Metta
Quite simply, there is no such thing as a sotapanna. This is an idea about an imaginary person. No such person exists, Nwad. Haven't you heard? Why chase what doesn't really exist? Does any of this have inherent existence?
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by cappuccino »

Saengnapha wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:36 amQuite simply, there is no such thing as a sotapanna.

Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by SarathW »

According to the following video (Sinhala language) only the Arhanats are incapable of breaking five precepts.
He uses Suthava Paribrajika sutta (AN5)to prove his point.
In his opinion Sotapanna incapable only committing five heinous crimes.
He also says Sura is not only referring to alcohol. It appears there are five kinds of Sura such as Sota Sura (eye-related bonding ie: watching TV) etc.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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