Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:33 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:53 am
To choose not to speak your mind in a situation, or too even tell a lie will be filtered through the "gate keepers"
i missed the gate keepers part, was it itt?
:anjali:
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thepea
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by thepea » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:30 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:47 am
i have not studied parami.
10 Parami or mental perfections of which
tolerance(khanti) and morality(sila) are part of.

I’m not really sure of your position on this topic and I’m not following your logic of argument perhaps a language barrier.
I don’t understand why you place importance on the spoken word but not the unspoken thought?

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:40 am

thepea wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:30 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:47 am
i have not studied parami.
10 Parami or mental perfections of which
tolerance(khanti) and morality(sila) are part of.

I’m not really sure of your position on this topic and I’m not following your logic of argument perhaps a language barrier.
I don’t understand why you place importance on the spoken word but not the unspoken thought?
Oh, i am actually defending but helping in getting it organized to contain this Topic i doubt it will take off
Now there are two threads for people who want to take a position on the matter to debate it. I spent quite a while debating what is the Opposition here in the other thread and since that thread gor revived with repeated material as it was tl;dr i made this thread.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:44 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:13 pm
pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:45 pm
Qualifications to attain Sotapannna,

2. Have a pure sila especially the 1st 5 percepts.
How do you derive all that from the stuff you have posted ITT or in general, without residue? Also what means "to attain", can he break them or not, is it possible, can it happen? that is the point. I think Defense will ask you where you are going with this and if you do have a plan. This as it stands does not even require refutation. You will be asked;
"on what grounds exactly do you make this statement?"
So it is back to square 1.
Oh well, the topic itself is always going to lead back to square 1. :smile: ... Why? Because you are not Sotapanna yet, and you won't understand it, until you become one.
If i were to revese the question, i would ask, how do you know the one who break the percepts is Sotapanna?... do you see what I mean?

Anyway, I'll continue with this discussion just for fun and exchanging thoughts.

You asked: How do you derive all that from the stuff you have posted ITT or in general, without residue? I actually read/heard from a monk teaching about Characteristics of Sotapanna. This monk is well-known in my country. It is believed that he had attained nibbana.

Sotapanna is the one who walk in the noble path. It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana. Do you see?..They do not have time to fool around especially in the realm of hell.

7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world). And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.

I want to discuss more but I'm kindda busy today. I'll give more comment tonight.

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:04 am

pinit29 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:44 am

You asked: How do you derive all that from the stuff you have posted ITT or in general, without residue? I actually read/heard from a monk teaching about Characteristics of Sotapanna. This monk is well-known in my country. It is believed that he had attained nibbana.

Sotapanna is the one who walk in the noble path. It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana. Do you see?..They do not have time to fool around especially in the realm of hell.

7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world). And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.

I want to discuss more but I'm kindda busy today. I'll give more comment tonight.
Green could be refuted by asking How is the public to belive that this monk attained the supposed Attainment;
Kalama Sutta;
"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher."
On structure of the argument of the Opposition;

If "X" & "Y "are "true" it does not mean that "Z" is "true", it can make "Z" "possible" or "impossible" if it expresses a statement about Z but it does not prove "Z" to be true in this case.

statement "X";
It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana
Statement "Y";
7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world)
and/or
And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.
Statement "Z"
"Sotapanna cannot break Five Precepts, only this is true, nothing else is possible"
This is what needs to be rightfully established by direct statement or implication using the Tipitaka if you want to prove it is not a view.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:33 am
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:53 am
To choose not to speak your mind in a situation, or too even tell a lie will be filtered through the "gate keepers"
i missed the gate keepers part, was it itt?
:anjali:
No, you didn't miss anything I guess.
If we have gatekeepers who have developed awareness, they will pay attention to the instructions that they are given. If they pay full attention to the instructions that are given, they will be able to remember them and act on them diligently. This is how we should practice mindfulness. We should always give ourselves clear instructions with full attention so that we will remember what it is we are supposed to be doing. The teacher's job is also to give clear instructions to help us in guiding the mind. That is why I teach in very clear stages: stage 1, stage 2, stage 3, etc. When we make the training in meditation methodical, when each stage is very clear, then it becomes possible to give our "gatekeepers" clear instructions.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... ulness.htm
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:18 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:33 am

i missed the gate keepers part, was it itt?
:anjali:
No, you didn't miss anything I guess.
If we have gatekeepers who have developed awareness, they will pay attention to the instructions that they are given. If they pay full attention to the instructions that are given, they will be able to remember them and act on them diligently. This is how we should practice mindfulness. We should always give ourselves clear instructions with full attention so that we will remember what it is we are supposed to be doing. The teacher's job is also to give clear instructions to help us in guiding the mind. That is why I teach in very clear stages: stage 1, stage 2, stage 3, etc. When we make the training in meditation methodical, when each stage is very clear, then it becomes possible to give our "gatekeepers" clear instructions.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... ulness.htm
thanks
The simile of the gatekeeper to describe mindfulness was used by the Buddha (AN VII, 63)
idk if you want a comment on anything at this point
:anjali:
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:35 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:04 am
pinit29 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:44 am

You asked: How do you derive all that from the stuff you have posted ITT or in general, without residue? I actually read/heard from a monk teaching about Characteristics of Sotapanna. This monk is well-known in my country. It is believed that he had attained nibbana.

Sotapanna is the one who walk in the noble path. It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana. Do you see?..They do not have time to fool around especially in the realm of hell.

7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world). And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.

I want to discuss more but I'm kindda busy today. I'll give more comment tonight.
Green could be refuted by asking How is the public to belive that this monk attained the supposed Attainment;
I knew that you are going to ask this question. I was going to clarify it right away but decided not to and leave it just in case you wouldn't ask. Oh well, since you make the note..

In my country, it is believed that the only proof of one being Arahant is that after his death, his Sankhara (compounded things: blood, nails hair, etc) has to become Arahant relic. And this is the case for this monk I was talking about.



rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:04 am

On structure of the argument of the Opposition;

If "X" & "Y "are "true" it does not mean that "Z" is "true", it can make "Z" "possible" or "impossible" if it expresses a statement about Z but it does not prove "Z" to be true in this case.

statement "X";
It is believed that once you are Sotapanna, you will have to be rebirth at most 7 times before attaining nibbana
Statement "Y";
7 times of rebirth of Sotapanna will most likely be in this realm (human world)
and/or
And in order to ensure (100% certain) that anyone will be rebirth in the human realm is to keep 1st 5 Sila pure.
Statement "Z"
"Sotapanna cannot break Five Precepts, only this is true, nothing else is possible"
This is what needs to be rightfully established by direct statement or implication using the Tipitaka if you want to prove it is not a view.
This is why I said the topic itself will lead us to square 1. Since the attackers side will only accept concrete evidence such as it has to be said in Suta...

Anyway, the best I can find to persuade you is from Dhama Home website, it said, "Attaining the first stage of Nibbana (Sotapanna stage) will remove suffering in the apayas forever, which could be more than billions or even trillions of years."

By the way, Apayas mean (lower worlds such as hell). I don't know if this make any logic sense to you or not. But for my logic sense, breaking any one of five percepts may lead us to the Apayas realms. Even if it's only one time things of breaking percepts, there still leave some possibilities to fall into Apayas realms. So, the only conclusion for the Sotapanna to have 0% chance of falling into Apayas realms is, not to break any percepts, not even once. Period!


Dhama Home website: https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... or-brahma/
Last edited by pinit29 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:42 am

Njai ... ;)
I see that you have 411 post since you hatched your way into this place, so maybe better check temperature on your pc .. :tongue:

BTW: Gate keepers are easy and nice tools in practice.

Have a nice day!

Edit: slowfinger! ;)
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:45 am

pinit29 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:35 am
This is why I said the topic itself will lead us to square 1.
"Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."
Do you accept that this position can not be refuted by the Tipitaka in a co-herent manner, unbeatable in that sense?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:47 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:42 am
Njai ... ;)
I see that you have 411 post since you hatched your way into this place, so maybe better check temperature on your pc .. :tongue:

BTW: Gate keepers are easy and nice tools in practice.

Have a nice day!

Edit: slowfinger! ;)
i used to post before as r1111 i think remember you,

have a good day you as well!
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:45 am
Do you accept that this position can not be refuted by the Tipitaka in a co-herent manner, unbeatable in that sense?

Well, I haven't thoroughly studied everything in Tripitaka. So, I cannot say that there is or there isn't any Suta talking about this.
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:45 am
"Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it is not about Sotapanna can or cannot break Five percepts. But it's about Sotapanna's choice to choose not to break any percepts no matter what period.

....
I would like to talk about Kamma (Karma) to clarify about Sotapanna's choices... but that might lead us to the whole new topics... so it's better just keep it short as it is...


Just curiousity, are you truely Buddhist? I mean, if you are, I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you have on Buddha's teaching. But if you aren't, and you are non-believer, then I think it is just a waste of my time....

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm

pinit29 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 pm
I mean, if you are, I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you have on Buddha's teaching.
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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pinit29
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by pinit29 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:15 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
pinit29 wrote: I mean, if you are, I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you have on Buddha's teaching.
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
You haven't answered my question yet... :smile:

Are you a believer or non-believer?

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:27 pm

pinit29 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:15 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:07 pm
pinit29 wrote: truely Buddhist
I do not think you are capable but you are welcome to i would appreciate it greatly, expressed there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31270
You haven't answered my question yet... :smile:

Are you a believer or non-believer?
You probably do not know that in the Dispensation of the Noble Ones believer or non-believer do not make a Buddhist.
Pubbakotthaka Sutta: Eastern Gatehouse
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at the Eastern Gatehouse. There he addressed Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation? Do you take it on conviction that the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?"

"Lord, it's not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.
We ought not to continue with this discussion ITT imo. Already off-topic.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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