Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

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rightviewftw
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Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:16 am

Hi

i thought it would be fitting to have a thread for people who want to challenge the OP position.
which is;
"Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:26 am

I think it is very difficult to answer this question when the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa leads to believing taking the requisite of medicine to cleanse the body of an intestinal worm is breaking the 1st precept.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:30 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:26 am
I think it is very difficult to answer this question when those with the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa believe taking medicine to cleanse the body of an intestinal worm is breaking the 1st precept.
very interesting, i think we should gather data from that other thread to make a strong attack. Idk if you want me involved as i will be defending.
if you make it too simple the opposition will refute it and make the challenger look dumb frankly, that would be bad for the challenger.

Ideally there should be no attack without certainty about the defensibility of the position. Actually the attacker ideally wants to understand the position of the defense better than the defending party does. If one is not sure about one's own position and can not explain the position of the opposition, he has no chance of winning a debate, let alone proving anything.
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:06 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:19 pm
seems plain, have to keep the five precepts.
here from the other thread, something that can be used as suggestive evidence at least. However a(at least some (have not look at all) of these Sutta are going to be interpereted differently and in what seems to me at least to me a much more logical way, so it is a problem. Example of this here;
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29507&start=140#p425196
we can also use the commentary but i think the Defense will call non-authority, so attacking party better try figure it out themselves using only the Tipitaka. Still should use commentary to try finding a way to try and disprove the Position by means of Tipitaka of course.
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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:28 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:26 am
I think it is very difficult to answer this question when the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa leads to believing taking the requisite of medicine to cleanse the body of an intestinal worm is breaking the 1st precept.
i am curious about vinaya and if there is a story to go with the rule, do you know of it?

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:30 am

"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2

"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:42 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:30 am
"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2

"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27
This will be refuted;

Virtues dear to noble ones undefined and are not defined as five precepts. There are Sutta, which are very problematic for this, ie 4 precept vs 5 precept Sutta, Sarakaani&Sigalovada vs Panca Sila. Defense does not even have to use them and can just counter by asking if a baby does not break precepts and is endowed with such virtues?

Deeds by which one goes to hell are not defined as 5 precepts

Firm in the good dhamma fwiw,

Accomplished in precepts, How do you think this is going to go after being seemingly refuted by Abandonement of sīlabbata-parāmāsa and defense telling you that a Putujhanna is not expected to comperhend this?

So very pretty suggestive evidence but already in the Material that Dhammarakhito posted i think, problem there is there is no Endgame with this evidence. Round one yes it looks good, but after refutation what are you going to do...

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:01 am

sarakāni sutta, which you mentioned, says sarakāni 'completed the training' upon his death. completed the training here i interpret as utterly renouncing drinking in accordance with pañcasīla. i know of no examples of a sotāpanna breaking the precepts. as i'm not unclear on this, i'm curious why it is a topic at all. sotāpanna is like draining an ocean and having only a few drops left; that is how much dukkha is behind you. breaking pañcasīla induces terrible suffering, being capable of breaking those precepts in itself is unsatisfactory
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:05 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:01 am
i'm curious why it is a topic at all.
i mention sarakaani sutta and sigalovada sutta because they both are arguably proof for 5 precepts not being fundamental to holy life.
Well you guys were challenging the position, so i made a thread for you to prepare before i unleash without derailing the other thread.

I need someone to assume the role of Attacker tho so someone will actually have to come forth debating on your behalf. I doubt there will be such a champion among you, but let's find out and see how this unravels. I doubt because i think none of you even claims to understand the Nibbana and arising of Aggregates so i do not see how any of you could even attempt this. Apart from Doot, i am sure he would jump right in but if we go over the evidence first maybe even he will hestitate.

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 am

i am not interested in a hostile discussion. i think a few of your comments to me have been unwarranted.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:19 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 am
i am not interested in a hostile discussion. i think a few of your comments to me have been unwarranted.
id appreciate if you tell me so i can better reform myself, idk why people dont call me out on the way i post more i definitely deserve it...
:anjali:

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:24 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 am
i am not interested in a hostile discussion.
I told you to make it friendly format and it annoyed me when you bumped that thread. I do not treat you as a troll and take time to answer all your questions afaik, i dont think it was appropriate but maybe you did not see it that way and it is not right of me to assume things will be understood by default if left unspoken. I am interested in debating this as much as possible tho, in the most structured way possible.

Also making this thread reliefs me of the burden of proof in that other thread, i do not think you understand what it takes to debate a view like this in a coherent manner with smart people but neither did i at some point.

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:45 am

i vaguely remember you telling me to make a thread, but you linked a thread and i replied there. a bunch of different threads go on with many different people so i try to get in say my peace and unsubscribe. i like to troll from time to time but i havent tried to troll you you dont seem like you would take it very well either
if i were going to debate i would want to be sure i was speaking rightly, and as of yet i am operating off of my views. dylan said recently about getting angry and it being a sign that a wrong opinion is being held, might look at that
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Challenging Position "Sotapanna Can break Five Precepts, it is possible, it can happen."

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:10 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:45 am
i vaguely remember you telling me to make a thread, but you linked a thread and i replied there. a bunch of different threads go on with many different people so i try to get in say my peace and unsubscribe. i like to troll from time to time but i havent tried to troll you you dont seem like you would take it very well either
if i were going to debate i would want to be sure i was speaking rightly, and as of yet i am operating off of my views. dylan said recently about getting angry and it being a sign that a wrong opinion is being held, might look at that
That makes sense to me. As i thought it did not make sense that you ignored my post in regards looking at that thread for info on the matter and how previous debate went. As for trolling i would not do it on this forum for sure too much nice people intended on good.

In regards to holding wrong view, if you doubt then it is a view you hold, it can be either right or wrong if i had doubts about this topic id think to my self "screw this, this is clearly not essential to me and i am currently inclined to believe that propsition A is more probable than proposition B on account of x,y,z but i know or do not know the evidence and am not forced to take a position.

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