What is the sixth sense base ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:48 pm

James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am
You see , either mind is also a kind of matter and conscious of itself and other phenomena .
Or mind is non matter and totally different from matter .
I don't think that anyone is trying to say that mind is matter. Even those who are of the view that mind arises in the brain do not think that the brain is the mind....just like the people who are of the view that sight arises in the eye do not think that the eye is sight.
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am
The question is where is the base called mind ?
Otherwise , we should not called it base because it has no designation .
I guess it depends on what is meant by "base". Some people are of the view that there are six senses and for instance to consider the eye they think "yes, I have two of those which reside in sockets in the front of my head. For these people the "base" for sight resides in those two lumps of matter which reside in the front of their head. These people have no question about where the "bases" for hearing, smell, taste, and touch reside because the suttas describe them with explicit body parts indicated as the base. Some of these people ask "where is the base for the mind?".....and for me the logical body part which would be used as the base for the mind is the brain......this seems like a no brainer to me.

What I have just said is how some people relate to the senses. Other people view them completely differently. Some people say that the buddha never talks about the lump of matter called the eye but rather he is talking about how we perceive that vision arises.....they consider the eye to be not the thing which gives rise to sight but it is the concept that we use to understand how sight arises....it is a fabrication...it is an explanation of how sight happens. Some of these people will say that if you think that sight arises in the eye then you are making a delusional self called "the eye" and giving it properties. Some of these same people will say that it is better that when there is sight to just see what is seen and not to fabricate a seer or a seen. For some of these people none of the six sense bases are matter....they are mental fabrications.
chownah

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:36 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am
You see , either mind is also a kind of matter and conscious of itself and other phenomena .
Or mind is non matter and totally different from matter .
I don't think that anyone is trying to say that mind is matter. Even those who are of the view that mind arises in the brain do not think that the brain is the mind....just like the people who are of the view that sight arises in the eye do not think that the eye is sight.
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am
The question is where is the base called mind ?
Otherwise , we should not called it base because it has no designation .
I guess it depends on what is meant by "base". Some people are of the view that there are six senses and for instance to consider the eye they think "yes, I have two of those which reside in sockets in the front of my head. For these people the "base" for sight resides in those two lumps of matter which reside in the front of their head. These people have no question about where the "bases" for hearing, smell, taste, and touch reside because the suttas describe them with explicit body parts indicated as the base. Some of these people ask "where is the base for the mind?".....and for me the logical body part which would be used as the base for the mind is the brain......this seems like a no brainer to me.

What I have just said is how some people relate to the senses. Other people view them completely differently. Some people say that the buddha never talks about the lump of matter called the eye but rather he is talking about how we perceive that vision arises.....they consider the eye to be not the thing which gives rise to sight but it is the concept that we use to understand how sight arises....it is a fabrication...it is an explanation of how sight happens. Some of these people will say that if you think that sight arises in the eye then you are making a delusional self called "the eye" and giving it properties. Some of these same people will say that it is better that when there is sight to just see what is seen and not to fabricate a seer or a seen. For some of these people none of the six sense bases are matter....they are mental fabrications.
chownah
Conventionally , we have to refer something with names otherwise we couldn't continue with our conversation . With the eyes there is a seeing , and that doesn't mean there is a self in it .
You didn't give any definite answer . We are not talking about the brain as the mind . But , what being the base of mind !
After all these years , we still unable to sort out what the Buddha said .

chownah
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:54 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:36 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am
You see , either mind is also a kind of matter and conscious of itself and other phenomena .
Or mind is non matter and totally different from matter .
I don't think that anyone is trying to say that mind is matter. Even those who are of the view that mind arises in the brain do not think that the brain is the mind....just like the people who are of the view that sight arises in the eye do not think that the eye is sight.
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am
The question is where is the base called mind ?
Otherwise , we should not called it base because it has no designation .
I guess it depends on what is meant by "base". Some people are of the view that there are six senses and for instance to consider the eye they think "yes, I have two of those which reside in sockets in the front of my head. For these people the "base" for sight resides in those two lumps of matter which reside in the front of their head. These people have no question about where the "bases" for hearing, smell, taste, and touch reside because the suttas describe them with explicit body parts indicated as the base. Some of these people ask "where is the base for the mind?".....and for me the logical body part which would be used as the base for the mind is the brain......this seems like a no brainer to me.

What I have just said is how some people relate to the senses. Other people view them completely differently. Some people say that the buddha never talks about the lump of matter called the eye but rather he is talking about how we perceive that vision arises.....they consider the eye to be not the thing which gives rise to sight but it is the concept that we use to understand how sight arises....it is a fabrication...it is an explanation of how sight happens. Some of these people will say that if you think that sight arises in the eye then you are making a delusional self called "the eye" and giving it properties. Some of these same people will say that it is better that when there is sight to just see what is seen and not to fabricate a seer or a seen. For some of these people none of the six sense bases are matter....they are mental fabrications.
chownah
Conventionally , we have to refer something with names otherwise we couldn't continue with our conversation . With the eyes there is a seeing , and that doesn't mean there is a self in it .
You didn't give any definite answer . We are not talking about the brain as the mind . But , what being the base of mind !
After all these years , we still unable to sort out what the Buddha said .
I did give a definite answer. I said that for those who view the six senses as being arising from bodily structures then the brain can clearly act as the base for the mind.....and I said that for some other people the bases for all of the six senses are mental fabrications.
It depends on what you mean by "base".....something which you have not definitely defined. If you defined "base" then the discussion might be more understandable.

What do you see as the "base" for the eye?....for example..
chownah

James Tan
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:30 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:54 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:36 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:48 pm

I don't think that anyone is trying to say that mind is matter. Even those who are of the view that mind arises in the brain do not think that the brain is the mind....just like the people who are of the view that sight arises in the eye do not think that the eye is sight.

I guess it depends on what is meant by "base". Some people are of the view that there are six senses and for instance to consider the eye they think "yes, I have two of those which reside in sockets in the front of my head. For these people the "base" for sight resides in those two lumps of matter which reside in the front of their head. These people have no question about where the "bases" for hearing, smell, taste, and touch reside because the suttas describe them with explicit body parts indicated as the base. Some of these people ask "where is the base for the mind?".....and or me the logical body part which would be used as the base for the mind is the brain......this seems like a no brainer to me.

What I have just said is how some people relate to the senses. Other people view them completely differently. Some people say that the buddha never talks about the lump of matter called the eye but rather he is talking about how we perceive that vision arises.....they consider the eye to be not the thing which gives rise to sight but it is the concept that we use to understand how sight arises....it is a fabrication...it is an explanation of how sight happens. Some of these people will say that if you think that sight arises in the eye then you are making a delusional self called "the eye" and giving it properties. Some of these same people will say that it is better that when there is sight to just see what is seen and not to fabricate a seer or a seen. For some of these people none of the six sense bases are matter....they are mental fabrications.
chownah
Conventionally , we have to refer something with names otherwise we couldn't continue with our conversation . With the eyes there is a seeing , and that doesn't mean there is a self in it .
You didn't give any definite answer . We are not talking about the brain as the mind . But , what being the base of mind !
After all these years , we still unable to sort out what the Buddha said .
I did give a definite answer. I said that for those who view the six senses as being arising from bodily structures then the brain can clearly act as the base for the mind.....and I said that for some other people the bases for all of the six senses are mental fabrications.
It depends on what you mean by "base".....something which you have not definitely defined. If you defined "base" then the discussion might be more understandable.

What do you see as the "base" for the eye?....for example..
chownah
No that is what others said not you .
Your question seems problematic ,
Base for the eyes ?
I thought the sutta stated that ,
the eyes(6 senses) as the base for sight to arise etc .

chownah
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:50 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:30 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:54 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:36 pm


Conventionally , we have to refer something with names otherwise we couldn't continue with our conversation . With the eyes there is a seeing , and that doesn't mean there is a self in it .
You didn't give any definite answer . We are not talking about the brain as the mind . But , what being the base of mind !
After all these years , we still unable to sort out what the Buddha said .
I did give a definite answer. I said that for those who view the six senses as being arising from bodily structures then the brain can clearly act as the base for the mind.....and I said that for some other people the bases for all of the six senses are mental fabrications.
It depends on what you mean by "base".....something which you have not definitely defined. If you defined "base" then the discussion might be more understandable.

What do you see as the "base" for the eye?....for example..
chownah
No that is what others said not you .
Your question seems problematic ,
Base for the eyes ?
I thought the sutta stated that ,
the eyes(6 senses) as the base for sight to arise etc .
Go back and read the sutta you brought on page 1 of this thread....it doesn't state anything about a "base".
I think I have explained my views on this and you just don't seem to understand so that's ok but unless I think of some other way to explain then I will stop posting.
chownah

James Tan
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:43 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:50 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:30 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:54 am

I did give a definite answer. I said that for those who view the six senses as being arising from bodily structures then the brain can clearly act as the base for the mind.....and I said that for some other people the bases for all of the six senses are mental fabrications.
It depends on what you mean by "base".....something which you have not definitely defined. If you defined "base" then the discussion might be more understandable.

What do you see as the "base" for the eye?....for example..
chownah
No that is what others said not you .
Your question seems problematic ,
Base for the eyes ?
I thought the sutta stated that ,
the eyes(6 senses) as the base for sight to arise etc .
Go back and read the sutta you brought on page 1 of this thread....it doesn't state anything about a "base".
I think I have explained my views on this and you just don't seem to understand so that's ok but unless I think of some other way to explain then I will stop posting.
chownah
Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases

94. Untamed, Unguarded
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, these six bases for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—are bringers of suffering. What six?

The eye, bhikkhus, as a base for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—is a bringer of suffering. The ear as a base for contact … the mind as a base for contact … is a bringer of suffering. These six bases for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—are bringers of suffering.

“Bhikkhus, these six bases for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—are bringers of happiness. What six?

“The eye, bhikkhus, as a base for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—is a bringer of happiness. The ear as a base for contact … The mind as a base for contact … is a bringer of happiness. These six bases for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—are bringers of happiness.”

This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this:

Just six, O bhikkhus, are the bases for contact,
Where one unrestrained meets with suffering.
Those who know how to restrain them
Dwell uncorrupted, with faith their partner.

chownah
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:04 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:43 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:50 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:30 am


No that is what others said not you .
Your question seems problematic ,
Base for the eyes ?
I thought the sutta stated that ,
the eyes(6 senses) as the base for sight to arise etc .
Go back and read the sutta you brought on page 1 of this thread....it doesn't state anything about a "base".
I think I have explained my views on this and you just don't seem to understand so that's ok but unless I think of some other way to explain then I will stop posting.
chownah
Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases

94. Untamed, Unguarded
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, these six bases for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—are bringers of suffering. What six?

The eye, bhikkhus, as a base for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—is a bringer of suffering. The ear as a base for contact … the mind as a base for contact … is a bringer of suffering. These six bases for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—are bringers of suffering.

“Bhikkhus, these six bases for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—are bringers of happiness. What six?

“The eye, bhikkhus, as a base for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—is a bringer of happiness. The ear as a base for contact … The mind as a base for contact … is a bringer of happiness. These six bases for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—are bringers of happiness.”

This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this:

Just six, O bhikkhus, are the bases for contact,
Where one unrestrained meets with suffering.
Those who know how to restrain them
Dwell uncorrupted, with faith their partner.
This is not the sutta you brought on the first page....you have switched the sutta and now the sutta you bring does NOT talk about the base for the mind.....you have been asking
about the base of the mind like when you said, "We are not talking about the brain as the mind . But , what being the base of mind !"......but this sutta is talking about the base for CONTACT.... not the base for the six sense media.
chownah

James Tan
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:59 pm

:reading:
Last edited by James Tan on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:01 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:59 pm
Saṃyutta Nikāya 35

Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases

234. Udayi

On one occasion the Venerable Ānanda and the Venerable Udayī were dwelling at Kosambī in Ghosita’s Park. Then, in the evening, the Venerable Udayī emerged from seclusion and approached the Venerable Ānanda. He exchanged greetings with the Venerable Ānanda and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:

“Friend Ānanda, in many ways the nature of this body has been declared, disclosed, and revealed by the Blessed One thus: ‘For such a reason this body is nonself.’ Is it possible to explain the nature of this consciousness in a similar way—to teach, proclaim, establish, disclose, analyse, and elucidate it thus: ‘For such a reason this consciousness is nonself’?”

“It is possible, friend Udayī. Doesn’t eye-consciousness arise in dependence on the eye and forms?”
“Yes, friend.”

“If the cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness would cease completely and totally without remainder, could eye-consciousness be discerned?”

“No, friend.”

“In this way, friend, this has been declared, disclosed, and revealed by the Blessed One thus: ‘For such a reason this consciousness is nonself.’

“Doesn’t ear-consciousness arise in dependence on the ear and sounds?… Doesn’t mind-consciousness arise in dependence on the mind and mental phenomena?”

“Yes, friend.”


??????????????????????

what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?

chownah
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:22 pm

"Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases" is the name given to the collection of sutttas contained in samyutta nikaya 35 as nearly as I can tell....and the title is not part of the text of any sutta....it is just a description of the collection. I have only seen parts of two of those nikayas and they both use the word "base" as being a base for contact and not for the sense media.

It would be good if you brought a sutta which mentions "base" in relation to the mind so we can see what they are talking about but I'm not sure that you will find one.

In any case I think what I have said before addresses what we have seen so far....if you can clarify what you are talking about by showing "base" use with respect to each of the sense media then perhaps I would have a different perpective.

Specifically I think you should make a clear statement as to your view on whether "the eye" means those eye-ball thingies which sit in sockets on the front of your head...or not.....
chownah

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:03 pm

"" << if you can clarify what you are talking about by showing "base" use with respect to each of the sense media then perhaps I would have a different perpective.

Specifically I think you should make a clear statement as to your view on whether "the eye" means those eye-ball thingies which sit in sockets on the front of your head...or not..... >> ""



Base is the translation of someone else , if you want to argue about the precision of the words , you probably won't get the right one from me . And I am curious , I have a question , you are asking me to provide a sutta stating what is the base ?

Here I googled ,

Āyatana (Pāli; Sanskrit: आयतन) is a Buddhist term that has been translated as "sense base", "sense-media" or "sense sphere."

The sutta stated eyes but never said anything about eye_ball ! I don't know Pali unfortunately .

What I enquire about is question with regard to what is the thing called "mind" ?
And of course where is it located ?

Therefore , either you know or you don't know .
If you happens to know and gladly want to share then that is great .
If you don't know then that just it .

chownah
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:55 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:03 pm

What I enquire about is question with regard to what is the thing called "mind" ?
And of course where is it located ?
I think that english is not your native language....am I right? Before you seemed to be asking about the "base" for the mind....now you are talking about what is the mind. These are two different things. I have been discussing thinking that you want to know about the base for the mind.....now it seems that you want to discuss the mind itself.

I think that no one here is suggesting that the mind is matter.
I think that if one is looking for a base from which the mind operates then the brain is the obvious choice.
You continue to avoid saying whether you think that the eye is matter or not....your latest evasion of this is to say that the pali does not mention eyeball....but this does not say whether you think that the eye as used in the pali is matter or not.
chownah

Saengnapha
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Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:43 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:55 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:03 pm

What I enquire about is question with regard to what is the thing called "mind" ?
And of course where is it located ?
I think that english is not your native language....am I right? Before you seemed to be asking about the "base" for the mind....now you are talking about what is the mind. These are two different things. I have been discussing thinking that you want to know about the base for the mind.....now it seems that you want to discuss the mind itself.

I think that no one here is suggesting that the mind is matter.
I think that if one is looking for a base from which the mind operates then the brain is the obvious choice.
You continue to avoid saying whether you think that the eye is matter or not....your latest evasion of this is to say that the pali does not mention eyeball....but this does not say whether you think that the eye as used in the pali is matter or not.
chownah
Some say thought is matter. Would you agree or disagree?

James Tan
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:01 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:55 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:03 pm

What I enquire about is question with regard to what is the thing called "mind" ?
And of course where is it located ?
I think that english is not your native language....am I right? Before you seemed to be asking about the "base" for the mind....now you are talking about what is the mind. These are two different things. I have been discussing thinking that you want to know about the base for the mind.....now it seems that you want to discuss the mind itself.

I think that no one here is suggesting that the mind is matter.
I think that if one is looking for a base from which the mind operates then the brain is the obvious choice.
You continue to avoid saying whether you think that the eye is matter or not....your latest evasion of this is to say that the pali does not mention eyeball....but this does not say whether you think that the eye as used in the pali is matter or not.
chownah
Here I copied my question :

the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects .
Therefore , what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?

__________________________________________

Now , let's see ,
You can see my question ,
what is the 6th sense base ?
6th sense base is matter or non matter ?


6th sense is mind , where is the base / location ?
The base / location is of matter or non matter ?

Another thing is ,
What do you mean by mind ?
The mind is of matter or non matter ?

So , those are my questions .

chownah
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the sixth sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:52 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:01 am


Here I copied my question :

the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects .
Therefore , what would you think is the sixth sense base ? Would you think the sixth sense base is of matter or non matter ?

__________________________________________

Now , let's see ,
You can see my question ,
what is the 6th sense base ?
6th sense base is matter or non matter ?


6th sense is mind , where is the base / location ?
The base / location is of matter or non matter ?

Another thing is ,
What do you mean by mind ?
The mind is of matter or non matter ?

So , those are my questions .
Is english your native languge?
Do you think when the suttas talk about the eye that they are talking about something made of matter?

You are using the word "base" in two ways in this post. When you talk about the sixth sense base as it is mentioned in the pali scriptures the only meaning that I have been able to find is that the six sense media are bases for the arising of contact....like in the samyuta nikaya you quoted. So, when you talk about the sixth sense base as describe in the pali scriptures you are talking about the mind being the sixth sense base giving rise to contact. But you also use "base" another way when you ask what is the base/location of the mind. Using "base" two different ways without clearly differentiating between those two different meanings is confusing....please stop doing that.

I believe that your statement, "the sixth consciousness arises from the contact of the mind which is the sixth sense base versus mental objects " is incorrect. The sixth contact arises from the union of the mind, a mental object, and the sixth consciousness........I think you've got consciousness arising from contact which is backwards.

You seem to be constantly avoiding answering the question about whether you think the eye is made of matter or not.....I'm wondering why.

chownah

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