What is vipassana and anapanasati?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pinit29
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by pinit29 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 am

thepea wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:32 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:17 pm

You claim that meditating on a corpse is wrong concentration, but the Buddha taught it, and did not call it wrong concentration even once as far as I am aware of.

Kevin
It is concentration but it is not free from craving and aversion. How can this lead to liberative wisdom?
It is helpful to regain composure when mind is full of lust.
If you can concentrate on breath no need to think about corpses at all, entirely unneccessary.
You have the wrong understading about asubha meditation (meditating on corpse). The purpose of this meditation is to let your jitta see the truth about human body that it is not neat, it is not beautiful as it looks. If we peel out our skins, you will see all kind of ugly and nasty stuffs. By doing asubha meditating, you jitta will understand little by little that
1. The one of the 4 noble truth (dukka) is real. Everybody has to face it someday.
2. The fact that our bodies are not beautiful.
3. Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala) is absolute.

When your jitta sees this, you will gain a wisdom and such, your jitta will let go of Atta (self) little by little. And of couse, once your jitta starts letting Atta(self), your jitta will also let go of Tanha (carving) and Kilesa (impurities).

Dinsdale
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:20 am

JC938 wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:57 pm
What is vipassana and anapanasati and are there any other meditations type in Buddhism.
Basically vipassana ( insight ) and samatha ( tranquillity ) are qualities of mind to be developed.

Anapanasati is a method.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

thepea
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by thepea » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:28 am

pinit29 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 am

You have the wrong understading about asubha meditation (meditating on corpse). The purpose of this meditation is to let your jitta see the truth about human body that it is not neat, it is not beautiful as it looks. If we peel out our skins, you will see all kind of ugly and nasty stuffs. By doing asubha meditating, you jitta will understand little by little that
1. The one of the 4 noble truth (dukka) is real. Everybody has to face it someday.
2. The fact that our bodies are not beautiful.
3. Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala) is absolute.

When your jitta sees this, you will gain a wisdom and such, your jitta will let go of Atta (self) little by little. And of couse, once your jitta starts letting Atta(self), your jitta will also let go of Tanha (carving) and Kilesa (impurities).
Corpse meditation is not Bhavana-maya maya Panna it wisdom based from a combination of listening and observing others and thinking on this. It is not direct wisdom of experience.
Perhaps this is why monks took up the knife the we’re trying to see if this truth was within them also. Cutting open their bodies?
Even this is not Bhavana-maya Panna it cannot break the bonds to liberation.
The bond is broken from sensation(Vedana) and sankhara(reaction) or non reaction. The non reaction is which cuts the bond and liberates.

pinit29
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by pinit29 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:14 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:28 am
pinit29 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 am

You have the wrong understading about asubha meditation (meditating on corpse). The purpose of this meditation is to let your jitta see the truth about human body that it is not neat, it is not beautiful as it looks. If we peel out our skins, you will see all kind of ugly and nasty stuffs. By doing asubha meditating, you citta will understand little by little that
1. The one of the 4 noble truth (dukka) is real. Everybody has to face it someday.
2. The fact that our bodies are not beautiful.
3. Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala) is absolute.

When your citta sees this, you will gain a wisdom and such, your citta will let go of Atta (self) little by little. And of couse, once your citta starts letting Atta(self), your citta will also let go of Tanha (carving) and Kilesa (impurities).
Corpse meditation is not Bhavana-maya maya Panna it wisdom based from a combination of listening and observing others and thinking on this. It is not direct wisdom of experience.
Perhaps this is why monks took up the knife the we’re trying to see if this truth was within them also. Cutting open their bodies?
Even this is not Bhavana-maya Panna it cannot break the bonds to liberation.
The bond is broken from sensation(Vedana) and sankhara(reaction) or non reaction. The non reaction is which cuts the bond and liberates.
Still a misunderstanding there. How could you say that monks commited suicide because of asubha mediation. Were you there witnessing what's going on?

Anyway, I am not arguing that there was not such the case that some monks comitted suicide. What I heard is that some of those monks who comitted suicide, believed that they have attained nirvana and they felt like there is no attachment to this world, no point of continuing living. However, this is wrong doing. If only they have sammasankappa (right thought), sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind), sammasati (right mindful), and sammasamadhi (right concentration), they wouldn't have done that.

In asubha medition, you have to consider the death bodies with sammasankappa (right thought) and sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind).

How??? You have to consider that our bodies consists of non-beautiful things. Under our skins consist of ugly and nasty stuffs. Do we know this? Yes, we do. But does your citta know this? No, not actually. So, the purpose of doing asubha meditating is to teach your citta this, to let your citta learn. And of course, while you are considering the death body, you have to take the Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala) into consideration as well.

Anicca: our bodies keeps aging and decaying all the time. From baby to grown up. From grown up to elder. From elder to death. And some unfortunate one dies even before getting old. And once we dies, the bodies still keeps decaying until nothing left.
Dukka: if we are so attaching with these bodies, trying not look old or get old while in fact we cannot avoid it, it will only lead us Dukka(pain and suffering).
Anattala: Everthing including our bodies is actually not ours. Because if it is really ours, then we should be able to control it. But can we stop our bodies from aging, from decaying? NO...

If you are willing to open up, you will see that..

With sammasankappa (right thought) and sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind), your citta will see Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattal).
And with Tilakhana, your citta will have less and less Atta (self or ego) and then you citta will have less Tanha(carving). Once you have less Tanha, then of course you will have less kilesa(impurities: Dosa (hatred), Moha (delusion), and Lobha (greed))

And once your citta can see all things as
Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattal), you will attain nirvana.
Last edited by pinit29 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by thepea » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:24 pm

pinit29 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:14 pm

Still a misunderstanding there. How could you say that monks commited suicide because of asubha mediation. Were you there witnessing what's going on?

Anyway, I am not arguing that there was not such the case that some monks comitted suicide. What I heard is that some of those monks who comitted suicide, believed that they have attained nirvana and they felt like there is no attachment to this world, no point of continuing living. However, this is wrong doing. If only they have sammasankappa (right thought), sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind), sammasati (right mindful), and sammasamadhi (right concentration), they wouldn't have done that.

In asubha medition, you have to consider the death bodies with sammasankappa (right thought) and sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind).

How??? You have to consider that our bodies consists of non-beautiful things. Under our skins consist of ugly and nasty stuffs. Do we know this? Yes, we do. But does your jitta know this? No, not actually. So, the purpose of doing asubha meditating is to teach your Jitta this, to let your Jitta learn. And of course, while you are considering the death body, you have to take the Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala) into consideration as well.

Anicca: our bodies keeps aging and decaying all the time. From baby to grown up. From grown up to elder. From elder to death. And some unfortunate one dies even before getting old. And once we dies, the bodies still keeps decaying until nothing left.
Dukka: if we are so attaching with these bodies, trying not look old or get old while in fact we cannot avoid it, it will only lead us Dukka(pain and suffering).
Anattala: Everthing including our bodies is actually not ours. Because if it is really ours, then we should be able to control it. But can we stop our bodies from aging, from decaying? NO...

If you are willing to open up, you will see that..

With sammasankappa (right thought) and sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind), your jitta will see Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattal).
And with Tilakhana, your jitta will have less and less Atta (self or ego) and then you jitta will have less Tanha(carving). Once you have less Tanha, then of course you will have less kilesa(impurities: Dosa (hatred), Moha (delusion), and Lobha (greed))

And once your jitta can see all things as
Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattal), you will attain nirvana.
Firstly, I did not say the monks committed suicide because of this reason or that reason I said “perhaps” to promote discussion. I have no concrete evidence that this event even took place it could be a bunch of bullshit made up by someone deluded and passed on from generation to generation. Notice I said “it could”.

Secondly, I have never seen this sutta before and from reading it I’m not sure how you can come to the conclusions that monks thought they had attained nirvana
As I can’t see that anywhere. The conclusion I come to is Buddha was negligent and his students suffered. If angulimala can become an arahantship what did these poor buggers do to deserve this neglect from their teacher.

Thirdly, what does Jitta mean, I googled it and it says “mastery” I don’t know what that means in the context your using it?

Fourthly, I’m not disagreeing with you on content of practice of corpse meditation, I just don’t feel it is liberative wisdom. I feel it is beneficial when one is distracted by form, but it is not at a subtle enough level to sever the bonds of rebirth.

pinit29
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by pinit29 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 am

thepea wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:24 pm
pinit29 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:14 pm

Still a misunderstanding there. How could you say that monks commited suicide because of asubha mediation. Were you there witnessing what's going on?

Anyway, I am not arguing that there was not such the case that some monks comitted suicide. What I heard is that some of those monks who comitted suicide, believed that they have attained nirvana and they felt like there is no attachment to this world, no point of continuing living. However, this is wrong doing. If only they have sammasankappa (right thought), sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind), sammasati (right mindful), and sammasamadhi (right concentration), they wouldn't have done that.

In asubha medition, you have to consider the death bodies with sammasankappa (right thought) and sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind).

How??? You have to consider that our bodies consists of non-beautiful things. Under our skins consist of ugly and nasty stuffs. Do we know this? Yes, we do. But does your jitta know this? No, not actually. So, the purpose of doing asubha meditating is to teach your Jitta this, to let your Jitta learn. And of course, while you are considering the death body, you have to take the Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala) into consideration as well.

Anicca: our bodies keeps aging and decaying all the time. From baby to grown up. From grown up to elder. From elder to death. And some unfortunate one dies even before getting old. And once we dies, the bodies still keeps decaying until nothing left.
Dukka: if we are so attaching with these bodies, trying not look old or get old while in fact we cannot avoid it, it will only lead us Dukka(pain and suffering).
Anattala: Everthing including our bodies is actually not ours. Because if it is really ours, then we should be able to control it. But can we stop our bodies from aging, from decaying? NO...

If you are willing to open up, you will see that..

With sammasankappa (right thought) and sammaditthi (right understanding, right mind), your jitta will see Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattal).
And with Tilakhana, your jitta will have less and less Atta (self or ego) and then you jitta will have less Tanha(carving). Once you have less Tanha, then of course you will have less kilesa(impurities: Dosa (hatred), Moha (delusion), and Lobha (greed))

And once your jitta can see all things as
Tilakkhana (3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattal), you will attain nirvana.
Firstly, I did not say the monks committed suicide because of this reason or that reason I said “perhaps” to promote discussion. I have no concrete evidence that this event even took place it could be a bunch of bullshit made up by someone deluded and passed on from generation to generation. Notice I said “it could”.

Secondly, I have never seen this sutta before and from reading it I’m not sure how you can come to the conclusions that monks thought they had attained nirvana
As I can’t see that anywhere. The conclusion I come to is Buddha was negligent and his students suffered. If angulimala can become an arahantship what did these poor buggers do to deserve this neglect from their teacher.

Thirdly, what does Jitta mean, I googled it and it says “mastery” I don’t know what that means in the context your using it?

Fourthly, I’m not disagreeing with you on content of practice of corpse meditation, I just don’t feel it is liberative wisdom. I feel it is beneficial when one is distracted by form, but it is not at a subtle enough level to sever the bonds of rebirth.
First of all, sorry for the confusion. I just looked up into Pali dictionary and realized that I've typing it wrong. It actually spell "Citta"(mind) not "Jitta". Now lets get back to the discussion.

-your first point: point understood. You use the word perhaps to promote discussion

-your second point: it's not in sutta. I just said that from what i heard... So, it's not from sutta.
-still in your second point:
Buddha was not negligent and let his students suffered. Based on one of the Buddha's teaching, it actually starts from Dana (Giving), then Sila (Precept), then Bhavana (meditation). Meaning that before you start Bhavana, you must have Sila( Precept). And before you have Sila (precept), you should have a heart of giving.

Now get to the point, in Sila, the 1st one out of 227, is Panatipata (not to take life or killing). In this percept, the Lord Buddha forbids anyone from taking one life including himself/herself.

-your third point: It's Citta (mind) not Jitta...my bad

-your forth point: I am not going to repeat the same thing all over. But let me put it this way, to attain nirvana, You citta must have a wisdom. What kind of wisdom? A wisdom to see all things in
Tilakkhana way(3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala). So, any methods that let your Citta(mind) learn and be able to do this, is fine. If you feel that this does not make any sense to you, don't do it. Any Bhavana (meditation) must begin with Saddha (faith). Without Saddha(faith), you wouldn't go anyway. So choose the one you have faith with.

thepea
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:32 am

pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 am

First of all, sorry for the confusion. I just looked up into Pali dictionary and realized that I've typing it wrong. It actually spell "Citta"(mind) not "Jitta". Now lets get back to the discussion.

-your first point: point understood. You use the word perhaps to promote discussion

-your second point: it's not in sutta. I just said that from what i heard... So, it's not from sutta.
-still in your second point:
Buddha was not negligent and let his students suffered. Based on one of the Buddha's teaching, it actually starts from Dana (Giving), then Sila (Precept), then Bhavana (meditation). Meaning that before you start Bhavana, you must have Sila( Precept). And before you have Sila (precept), you should have a heart of giving.

Now get to the point, in Sila, the 1st one out of 227, is Panatipata (not to take life or killing). In this percept, the Lord Buddha forbids anyone from taking one life including himself/herself.

-your third point: It's Citta (mind) not Jitta...my bad

-your forth point: I am not going to repeat the same thing all over. But let me put it this way, to attain nirvana, You citta must have a wisdom. What kind of wisdom? A wisdom to see all things in
Tilakkhana way(3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala). So, any methods that let your Citta(mind) learn and be able to do this, is fine. If you feel that this does not make any sense to you, don't do it. Any Bhavana (meditation) must begin with Saddha (faith). Without Saddha(faith), you wouldn't go anyway. So choose the one you have faith with.
Just to let you know I’m posting from phone and having difficult separating different points in long posts. That’s why I’m using firstly, secondly,etc... rereading it may come across as condescending tone and that’s not my intention.

Buddha does not forbit with regards to precepts, students are to observe precepts, Buddha cannot forbit someone from taking action and this person obey, this is not dhamma. A teacher must be available to their students or make someone experienced available to keep an eye on the students. It is in this regard from reading sutta that Buddha was neglectful as a teacher and his students suffered.

To me the practice of liberation is an internal practice, how I react to others is a reflection of how I react internally.
Not all methods are fine some are gross like observing a decaying body or decaying tree, they are good to see truth at gross level but not refined enough to allow liberating wisdom to arise, this must come from direct experience within.

pinit29
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:03 pm

Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by pinit29 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm

thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:32 am
pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 am

First of all, sorry for the confusion. I just looked up into Pali dictionary and realized that I've typing it wrong. It actually spell "Citta"(mind) not "Jitta". Now lets get back to the discussion.

-your first point: point understood. You use the word perhaps to promote discussion

-your second point: it's not in sutta. I just said that from what i heard... So, it's not from sutta.
-still in your second point:
Buddha was not negligent and let his students suffered. Based on one of the Buddha's teaching, it actually starts from Dana (Giving), then Sila (Precept), then Bhavana (meditation). Meaning that before you start Bhavana, you must have Sila( Precept). And before you have Sila (precept), you should have a heart of giving.

Now get to the point, in Sila, the 1st one out of 227, is Panatipata (not to take life or killing). In this percept, the Lord Buddha forbids anyone from taking one life including himself/herself.

-your third point: It's Citta (mind) not Jitta...my bad

-your forth point: I am not going to repeat the same thing all over. But let me put it this way, to attain nirvana, You citta must have a wisdom. What kind of wisdom? A wisdom to see all things in
Tilakkhana way(3 signs of being:anicca, dukka, and anattala). So, any methods that let your Citta(mind) learn and be able to do this, is fine. If you feel that this does not make any sense to you, don't do it. Any Bhavana (meditation) must begin with Saddha (faith). Without Saddha(faith), you wouldn't go anyway. So choose the one you have faith with.
Just to let you know I’m posting from phone and having difficult separating different points in long posts. That’s why I’m using firstly, secondly,etc... rereading it may come across as condescending tone and that’s not my intention.

Buddha does not forbit with regards to precepts, students are to observe precepts, Buddha cannot forbit someone from taking action and this person obey, this is not dhamma. A teacher must be available to their students or make someone experienced available to keep an eye on the students. It is in this regard from reading sutta that Buddha was neglectful as a teacher and his students suffered.

To me the practice of liberation is an internal practice, how I react to others is a reflection of how I react internally.
Not all methods are fine some are gross like observing a decaying body or decaying tree, they are good to see truth at gross level but not refined enough to allow liberating wisdom to arise, this must come from direct experience within.

There are 4 major Apatti (offence from breaking Sila) called Parajika (major offences). And 1 of the 4 is Panatipata: taking one's life. The penalty for this Apatti: incompetent of being a monk(cannot become a monk anymore). So, I don't know if this count as forbidding for you or not.

Anyway, I would like to end this discussion now since I dont see if you and i will gain anything from further discussions.

Just a curiousity, are you truely buddhist? It just seems to me that you are trying to accuse the Lord Buddha of being neglected.

thepea
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:47 pm

pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm

There are 4 major Apatti (offence from breaking Sila) called Parajika (major offences). And 1 of the 4 is Panatipata: taking one's life. The penalty for this Apatti: incompetent of being a monk(cannot become a monk anymore). So, I don't know if this count as forbidding for you or not.
That one kind of takes care of itself.
Dont ya think! :smile:

I don’t find that I fit into the Buddhist label, and I like to question the validity of suttas, I’m not doing it to be disrespectful, although some buddhists do not appreciate when I question Buddha in the way I do.

We have bunny trailed way of the path of this thread as is.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is vipassana and anapanasati?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:07 pm

thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:47 pm
pinit29 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm

There are 4 major Apatti (offence from breaking Sila) called Parajika (major offences). And 1 of the 4 is Panatipata: taking one's life. The penalty for this Apatti: incompetent of being a monk(cannot become a monk anymore). So, I don't know if this count as forbidding for you or not.
That one kind of takes care of itself.
Dont ya think! :smile:
That one does indeed take care of itself, but in fact the 1st parajika offence is not merely suicide, but the intentional bringing about of any human death.

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