Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

Post by chownah » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:27 am

The article you brought is not scientific as far as I can tell. I started reading the introduction and it is pretty obvious that there are too many unsupported and unexplained assumptions for this to be a scientific paper.

I suppose that it is theoretically possible for those assumptions to be addressed in the body of the paper but I doubt it so much that I am not willing to waste my time reading beyond the small bit that I did read....in my experience this kind of paper is too much work with no payback if one is looking for science.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

Post by chownah » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:37 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:50 pm

Consider that Sineru is the domain of beings on higher planes of existence than the human, with tavatiṁsa on top.
If one considers that sineru is out of this world and is somewhere else then there is no way for us here on this forum to know anything about it except for our own fabricated thoughts based on this world.....so really there is not much point in discussing something we can know nothing about......or have I missed something and there is some point of discussing something that we can know nothing about?

I can claim that something exists on a higher plane of existence but there would be no way for us to evaluate it I think......if there is a way then I would like to know it.
chownah

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DNS
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Re: Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:37 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:50 pm
So interpreting the teaching regarding Sineru as a phenomenon perceivable with the divine eye seems totally within reason. But instead of considering this, or any of the other large ranges of interpretations (& there are a lot, because the suttas say very little on this topic, most of the information comes from the commentaries) that preclude denying the modern worldview, you all jump immediately to denial.
I don't believe anyone here is jumping immediately to denial. It is after careful thought and checking the science and natural world. We know from science that mountains are formed from plate tectonics and shifting land masses. The Himalayas were formed when the large land mass that became the Indian sub-continent crashed into Asia, many millions of years ago. There was no divine force or divine meaning to that, just nature and natural causes. And we know from astronomy that earth is not the only planet and not the center of the universe.
The Buddha did not lie. I see no evidence in the teachings themselves for concluding he taught in a legendary/mythical way where something he said would be untrue at face-value but point to something else true.
The alternative, natural explanation doesn't have to mean the Buddha lied either. It could have been taught as a simile, allegory. Or it may not have been spoken by Buddha at all. The compilers of the Canon may have placed that in to fit the cultural mileau of the time, not as any form of deception, but simply to present the teachings in familiar language to the people of the time.
Also, at the risk of sounding conspiratorial, consider the fact that dozens of cultures with vast separation between them have shared this theory of the world. The best example would be Mount Olympus - a pantheon of gods (like the thirty-three) lived on top & they even battled with the Titans as the Devas with Asuras. But similar ideas of a world-mountain on which gods lived has been found across all sorts of ancient cultures. & yet of course this is at conflict with the modern worldview - I think the solution should not be to dismiss the former & accept the latter but to find a way the two can be reconciled.
Yes, all religions seem to like mountains; perhaps because they are so majestic looking, they are so high in elevation that they appear "heavenly." The Christians have the Sermon on the Mount; Judaism has Mt. Moriah Temple Mount and Mt. Sinai, Muslims have the mountains surrounding Mecca where Muhammad received revelations, etc.

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DNS
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Re: Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:40 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:37 am
If one considers that sineru is out of this world and is somewhere else then there is no way for us here on this forum to know anything about it except for our own fabricated thoughts based on this world.....so really there is not much point in discussing something we can know nothing about......or have I missed something and there is some point of discussing something that we can know nothing about?

I can claim that something exists on a higher plane of existence but there would be no way for us to evaluate it I think......if there is a way then I would like to know it.
chownah
Yes, exactly, it would be another Russell's teapot.

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dylanj
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Re: Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

Post by dylanj » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:22 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:37 am


The alternative, natural explanation doesn't have to mean the Buddha lied either. It could have been taught as a simile, allegory.
That's lying. If one must reject the teaching it would be better to believe the Buddha did not speak it.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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mikenz66
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Re: Let's discuss Mount Sineru!

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:27 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:37 am
dylanj wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:50 pm
So interpreting the teaching regarding Sineru as a phenomenon perceivable with the divine eye seems totally within reason. But instead of considering this, or any of the other large ranges of interpretations (& there are a lot, because the suttas say very little on this topic, most of the information comes from the commentaries) that preclude denying the modern worldview, you all jump immediately to denial.
I don't believe anyone here is jumping immediately to denial....
It's also worth considering the role of mythology, without assuming that labelling something as "myth" is to dismiss it:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wi ... ology/2346
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... sutta/4657

Mike

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